Receivers: They come in all flavors and prices...

rblnr

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A ?:

What do you all think are the relative strengths and weaknesses of the various Japanese brands, Denon/Onkyo/Yamaha, Pioneer, etc.

And if you have a favorite, why?

thx
 

NorthStar

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Receivers only.

Hi Bob, :b

McIntosh I'm not sure if they are still making a receiver, like the MHT200 from 2005 for example.
Same with Meridian (G51). And 'bout B&K receivers (AVR505 S2 & AVR507 S2)? Classe CAP-2100...
Lexicon RV-8... Primare SPA21... Edge G3... Magnum Dynalab... Revox M51... Sunfire Ultimate (Bob Carver)...
Vac... Vincent... Are these guys still making receivers? I'm not sure, I would have to google...

But Arcam (UK), Rotel and NAD (UK & Canada), Anthem (Canada & China), are making some great sounding ones. :b ...Outlaw Audio (USA)?

Now, the other receivers (Japanese, Malaysia, China, Korea, ...), and some of the better ones,
like from Denon, Marantz, Yamaha Aventage, Integra, Pioneer Elite, Onkyo, Sherwood Newcastle, Harman Kardon, Sony ES, Kenwood (are they still in the game?); well, from reading reviews all across the globe and from many many audio/video magazines and websites, plus some of first hand experience over the years (5, 10, 20, 30, 40, or even more), we all have our own personal perception and life's priorities. What is a dream come true for one person is another's nightmare! :b

Let's see your two main questions...

1. Overall and relative strengths and weakenesses of those brands from that last paragraph above...
- They are quick to implement the latest features.
- They mass market these receivers with great quantities, to fulfill the demand; so quality control can slip sometimes. And parts can also suffer from things like tsunamis for example.
- Now with firmware updatable receivers, manufacturers can release them even faster! Good or bad? Both!
- They can make very decent pre/pros; some of them.
- They are fully loaded with all the Streaming and latest applications.
- Apple and Microsoft computer integration; Internet and all that DNA Jazz...
- The top guns sound fantastic (dual differential DACs implementation, and top analog stage).
- Very very affordable (many of them) to all segments of all societies.

So, to recap; features (latest), speed (fast to be released), Internet integration and music/video streaming(PCs), Apple, Microsoft, applications, youtube, facebook, twitter, build quality (few of them, but certainly not all), ergonomics (amazing GUIs and 3D setup screens with 'intuitivity' in many of them), performance audio/video (exceptional in some of them in relation to value), and finally overall value for most common mortals (can't beat that)! :b

2. A favorite? Yes I have few, and I think most people who know me well enough know what they are, and from one year to the next, and from 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40 years ago up until today. :b
And they know too that it varies from all those years...

But today, from what is available now, and affordable, considering best value (street prices), and best performance/value/build quality/reliability/features packed ratio; this thread right here already mentioned the contenders. :b

Among them:
1. Onkyo TX-NR3009 (it's Integra equivalent is simply too much $ in general).
2. Onkyo TX-NR5009 (you can find some deals on that true flagship).
3. Denon AVR-4311CI (great value/features & street price for a great pre/pro).
4. Sherwood Newcastle R-972 (at $600, it's right up there with the unique Trinnov Optimizer).
5. Marantz SR7005 (best looker if that is your bag).
6. All Anthem receivers because they are now made in China, like most of those above.
7. All Arcam receivers (same as above I believe, but not fully sure).
---> More expensive though, but great sounding.
8. Some NAD models (China again).
9. Pioneer Elite SC-57.
10. Onkyo TX-NR1009 (great value).

...And I can continue down that list up to #100...

And then ask me the same question next year, and the cards might be all shuffled differently.
It's like investing in the stock market;
do your research into the companies' foundations and 'sound build'. :b

This is for me the very short answer to your two main questions; but I think you'll get a better viewpoint from my own perspective. :b

Cheers,
Bob
 
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NorthStar

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And why my choices?

Several, but I think you know most of them.

- Performance (excellent for what they are).
- Value (amazing street prices and deals).
- Build Quality (heaviest the better, but not neccessary in all cases).
- Features:
* Audyssey MultEQ XT32 with Audyssey MultEQ Pro Ready.
* THX Ultra2 Plus certification.
* ISF Video certification.
* Top parts including DSP chip processors, DACs, Video chip processors, transformers, transistors..
* The full Streaming enchilada, plus Internet update firmwares, and the entire DNA World inside! :b
* What else?!! These aren't receivers anymore;
they are complete machines (reintroduced mastodons)!

===> Try to be that quick with separate pre/pros!
The only company right now that is up to that challenge is Integra/Onkyo.
And they produce pre/pros every single year! And they keep adding the latest features to them!

High-End manufacturers simply cannot compete; it takes them five years on average to improve.
And if they try to do it in two or three, they always omit the latest and most important features!

And that is why, in my book, Onkyo/Integra are first with their overall A/V Receivers, and pre/pros as well of course. The features, and the value is right there. They show to the rest of the world the new directions... And since 2007; for the last five years now! They took over! Over Denon, over Marantz, over Yamaha, over Pioneer; in one way or another or more...
 

NorthStar

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But hey, Arcam receivers are nice (more $$$ though), Anthem receivers are nice (with ARC).
Sherwood Newcastle R-972 is incredible for only six hundred clams!
Denon and Marantz have some decent models.
Yamaha Aventage and Pionner Elite as well...

People have different taste and set of life's priorities, and level of knowledge...
And I respect them all, and I recommend them all...

But now you know my angle, Bob. :b
 

rblnr

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Thanks for the info Bob.. Gather Onkyo is your fave. Owned a 9.8 processor years ago so I'm somewhat familiar with Onkyo and yeah, they seem to be most on top of the latest features.

Helps me see what might differentiate the mainline Japanese brands from one another. Anyone have any recent experience with Yamaha or Pioneer?
 

JackD201

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I hope recent experiences are positive. My experience with Yamaha and Pioneer in the 90s was always negative. Thin and shrill. I went with an Onkyo Integra (that was before Integra was spun off as a separate brand).

An integrated I listened to and loved recently was an ancient one, a Fisher 500C. It was sweet and could rock more than the 35wpc or so might suggest. This old thing sounded thoroughly modern.
 

NorthStar

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Thanks for the info Bob.. Gather Onkyo is your fave. Owned a 9.8 processor years ago so I'm somewhat familiar with Onkyo and yeah, they seem to be most on top of the latest features.

Helps me see what might differentiate the mainline Japanese brands from one another. Anyone have any recent experience with Yamaha or Pioneer?

Bob, what do you mean? YPAO is only a Parametric EQ, and MCACC is also I believe.
And they are certainly not as sophisticated as Audyssey MultEQ XT32, but they are more manually adjustable, which some people prefer, regardless of the final results!

Each has his own sound signature, and from yesterday to today they have incorporated various new technologies. My older Pioneer Pro Logic receiver used Mosfet transistors and was real sweet sounding, but that was with CDs, LPs, VHS tapes of that era. Now they have ICE amplification (class D).

My ex-Denon receiver was lacking clarity and tightness in the bass that my ex-Yamaha receiver had. And my Yamaha was much better built than my Denon. But then it wasn't the flagship either (5805 at 97 pounds)!

My ex-Marantz receiver was pretty good for overall power, sound & build quality, but totally obsolete today.

But to find an individual who have tested all these new receivers in his own setup is challenging.
Perhaps two or three.

You can't ask that question, because there is simply no clear answer; only some directions....
Today, Room EQ is big! And I mean Big because it helps correcting for room's acoustics.
And that, is IMPORTANT. And to control a receiver perfectly is something else too.
But I guess with REW and other great tools you can do pretty good with Yamaha Aventage and Pioneer Elite receivers.

Methinks you want a receiver with the flattest frequency response all across the board (from 10 Hz to 50 kHz). And with the lowest distortion, and the highest S/N ratio, and good crosstalk, and good dumping factor, and 4 Ohms drive capability, and big power supply, with lots of current available ...
Then used it with the best integrated Room EQ system.

Just THX certification for example, is a battery of tests from the amp and preamp sections that are totalling up to hundreds of tests, many many pages sometimes (hundreds)!
Not many receivers nowadays are THX Ultra2 Plus certified.
Not many receivers nowadays have more than three DSP chips or more inside them (you need this for computational force of today). By the way, the Yamaha RX-Z11 has eight (8) powerful DSP chips in it (DSP sound effects and Parametric EQ with 10 bands per channel for nine channels and two subwoofers)!

Check inside each of these receivers to give you a better idea, by removing their top covers.

We're still talking mainly Japanese, Malaysia, China here right? And A/V Receivers?
And integrated Room Calibration and EQ systems inside them receivers?

I bet if we would have a vote among one million people, all across this planet, that Onkyo/Integra would gather 51% or more of all the votes. I got a very strong feeling about this. And being wrong is simply one of many options ... :b
 
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JackD201

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Very serious :)

My tech does a lot of restoration work along with amp building. The unit I listened to is bone stock except for the replacement of a couple of parts that had leaked. FM reception was pretty good too! Don't expect satellite radio though I think it can only pick up Sputnik and Voyager. LOL.

Here's a pic I pull off the net. His pic link at wiredstate.com is busted.

 

NorthStar

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Oh I luv those two small blue birds (swallows) with each holding a musical note in their mouth! :cool:

* Analog tuners are cool too. I'm still fond of those, and I still own few. :b
...And one of them from my Kenwood Stereo receiver.
 

NorthStar

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Just some facts about A/V Receivers' measurements ...

I'm the kind of person who believe (and know) that each receiver or/and amplifier sounds different to the next manufacturer's one. And that with receivers, as well with separate amplifiers & preamplifiers, speakers matching is the key to "your sound".

Now, sound quality is totally irrespective of "most" measurements, but nonetheless most common mortal humans put a big emphasis on measurements; except the very well "dressed". ...People who only want the very best without asking for measurements and where money is totally irrelative into their equation.

_____________________

Just some observations on some flagship A/V Receivers' measurements:

1. Denon AVR-5805CI => $7,200 MSRP
2. Pioneer Elite SC-09 => $7,000 MSRP
3. Lexicon RV-8 => $6,995 MSRP
4. Denon AVR-5308CI (with the latest Audyssey XT32 upgrade) => $6,700 MSRP
5. Yamaha RX-Z11 => $5,500 MSRP
6. Arcam AVR600 => $4,999 MSRP
7. Sunfire TGR-3 => $4,999 MSRP
8. Yamaha RX-Z9 => $4,500 MSRP
9. Marantz SR9600XM => $4,200 MSRP
10. NAD T785 => $3,799 MSRP
11. Arcam AVR500 => $3,499 MSRP
12. B&K AVR507 S2 => $3,498 MSRP

--> And I could have added another dozen or so more ranging from $3,399 down to $2,999 (Denon AVR-4810CI).

But let me add the last one here; the Onkyo TX-SR805 => $1,099 MSRP (just for fun).

Now, from the same instruments and in the same circumstances and from the same set of measurements; guess which one of those receivers above measure best for overall power output with 5 channels driven continuously into 8 Ohm loads, at 1 kHz and with 0.1% THD?
...The Pioneer Elite SC-09 with ICE (class D) amplification.

With 7 channels driven into 8 Ohm (same specs)? ...Pioneer Elite SC09 again.
With 2 channels driven into 8 Ohm (same specs)? ...Yamaha RX-Z11.
With 2 channels driven into 4 Ohm (same specs)? ...Pioneer Elite SC-09 again.

Best THD+N? ...Denon AVR-4810CI
Best S/N Ratio? ...Denon AVR-4810CI
Best Crosstalk (L to R & R to L)? ...Pioneer Elite SC-09

But those are all irrelevant because they are very close among other models, and they only tell part of the full picture. But I just mentioned them just for the fun of it. ...And without exact figures because the parameters can vary from unit to unit plus the variables done by the technician...

They are only an indicator, an approximation...

Between these receivers:

1. Denon AVR-5805CI (97 pounds)
2. Yamaha RX-Z9 (66 pounds)
3. Lexicon RV-8 (65 pounds)
4. NAD T785 (56 pounds)
5. Arcam AVR600 (55 pounds)
6. Onkyo TX-SR805 (51 pounds)
7. Arcam AVR500 (49 pounds)

...The Onkyo TX-SR805 has the best "overall" set of measurements! Power into 8 & 4 Ohm loads,
with 2, 5, and 7 channels driven continuously (at 0.1% & 1% THD), THD+N, S/N Ratio, Crosstalk (Channel Separation between L & R, and R & L), Frequency Response from the Multichannel Analog outputs.
I said "overall" here. And it comes close to the other top guns not mentioned but from the first list (dozen) above.
{I won't mention street prices here, as you guys & gals are pretty knowledgeable on this.}

* I have a special notebook at home where I keep all the measurements for easy comparison between most receivers of importance in the last 15 years or so, and up to now. A reference notebook if you will... And with all the best deals (prices). And of course all the specs (parts, weight, DACs, DSP chips, Video chips, analog stage implementation, differential mode if applicable, certifications' grades, true power delivery, transformers, transistors, op-amps, heatsinks, reliability, and a bunch more coordinates from pro reviews, owners, and all that Jazz)...

One thing I do not know though: how they performn (sound) in people's own homes with their own speakers and setups.
But I do know how they compare on average at my audio dealer rooms (but without perfection because the speakers do change as other variables, of course).

This thread is about receivers, and can even include stereo receivers. And some of the multichannel integrated amps, from like Yamaha as an example, can also be part of this as there aren't that many anyway.
So, please, understand here that there are limits as to their power delivery and their build quality plus thgeir total weight. They are not for dedicated systems of higher envergure, where some Boulder or Classe or other high-end power houses an separate pre/pros are used with "dynamite" loudspeakers.

No sir, receivers are for much more modest systems.
But they can also be used as pre/pros with additional separate amplification.

In most people homes, A/V Receivers are all you truly need, and they come at all levels;
from $100 to roughly $7,000.

Same as with separates; from $1,000 to $700,000+.

That's all for today folks. :b

P.S. If I make (made) any typos, I luv (love) to be corrected. TY
 

NorthStar

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Did any of you saw the Denon AVR-4311CI A/V Receiver for only $799 brand new at Vanns before?

Comes with Audyssey MultEQ XT32, is Audyssey MultEQ Pro Ready (with Audyssey Pro kit)!
Has nine (9) integrated power amplifiers!
Has a preamp only mode!
Has a great GUI.
Has tons of features plus lots of streaming.
And all that Jazz ... :b
MSRP: $1,999

* Whoever paid only $799 got a great deal on that unit! :cool: ...60% off (brand new); not bad at all!
 

NorthStar

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NorthStar

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Just a quick one ...

---Joerod (End User Clinician), a great member over at AVS Forum;
will have a review of the Onkyo TX-NR818 A/V Receiver very soon, at that same Forum.
{I will give you the direct link when available: post only.}

The MSRP for the 818 is $1,199 USD.
...But the street price should eventually and realistically get closer to $799 (33% off).

And remember; it is loaded with Audyssey MultEQ XT32, and has top-notch dual video processors. ...Plus all the latest Streaming features, THX Select2 Plus certification, and all that Jazz. :b

* More info is avail from the post just above (see direct link**).

I know that the majority (99% or so) of the members here would never consider a Receiver,
but with Audyssey MultEQ XT32 Room Correction & Calibration, Audyssey DSX, etc.,
it could be used as an excellent budget pre/pro. :b

_______________________

As for me, I am still very patient. ...Onkyo PR-SC5509 PRO Surround Processor coming perhaps in about two/three months or so (this Summer). ...And it's gorgeous looking, I think, personally. :b

That's it folks. Till then ...
 

NorthStar

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Integra DTR-80.3 A/V Receiver - Review

-----Here! :b

EDIT: Their site is having difficulties at this moment (not the first time),
so I'll update my post when they finally get their act together. :b

Sorry & thank you for your patience.

EDIT #2: Fixed! :b ...Their site finally got their act together!
 
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gtbdevs

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What would you do.

Currently have a Pioneer VSX-32, which I have no issues with.

Have the opportunity to get the Onkyo TX-NR709 for a really great price.

Which one would you go with?

I have a 5.1 system

Definitive Tech speakers. studio 350's R/L
DT. BP2X surrounds
Sub..PC12-Plus
CLR2002 center speaker


TIA
 
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amirm

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I am not seeing the reason to do that. Is there something specific that caught your eye? If you had a few hundred dollars, I would put it toward a second sub than another AVR.
 

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