The Upgrade Company

Ben said:

http://www.antivibrationmagic.ca/index.php

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The noise/vbration floor has to be finite. All these product have to have a cumulative finite effect.

Just an observation...

It's kind of hard not to chime in on this topic so.....

Like probably many here I've witnessed a number of threads on various forums about The Upgrade Company and one thing they all have in common is that they all turned into a circus. Naturally as you can imagine there are people out there that like to poke and instigate. However that doesn't explain or give reason for the behavior of Dave Schulte. After all the antics and even some nasty comments that have spewed from Dave Schulte's keyboard, I can only come to the conclusion that he doesn't want people to discuss his work.

This whole thing reminds me of the know it all weekend mechanic. I'm sure just about everyone knows somebody who fits this description. The know it all guy who is overly confident of his abilities to fix or make everything "better" and do so "better" than everyone else including highly trained, highly educated engineers. Surely if I install that after market cold air intake on my Mustang I am now on par with with the likes of Carol Shelby. "Hey this is easy", says the weekend mechanic. I must be onto something here. Before you know it the weekend mechanic is doing work for friends and family and everything seems to be going great. That is until he agrees to modify an engine for a neighbor. Since the weekend mechanic has no education (other than the directions on the back of a box) he has bitten off more than he can chew and has to guess his way through the job. Time goes by and the neighbor is starting to ask about his car The weekend mechanic does his best to put everything back together and running smoothly. Except for some some parts left over the weekend mechanic is proud of his work. The neighbor gets his car back and all appears to be well, so he must be a natural at this mechanic thing. That is until the neighbor's car breaks down a couple months later and is now in need of major repair. The neighbor decides it is now time to take his car to an actual certified mechanic who specializes in "x" brand automobile. The neighbor then learns from the real mechanic the weekend mechanic did more harm than good, and it is now gonna cost him more than what his car is worth to get fixed properly. The lesson for the neighbor is, sure Bob can change your oil and install a cold air intake, but he is no way capable of doing real work.

I've read a lot of claims (and tall tales) put forth by The Upgrade Company. DS has even stated that his work measures better than the stock unit. Surely that would be something to be proud of and would want to back up with proof. Imagine what that would do for business and good for him. Sure happy customers may agree that they like the new sound better than stock, but that does not mean your gear actually performs better.

You can't just go around making these claims and carrying on like a child and then expect to get taken seriously. You can't go around spouting off at the mouth that everyone else's products are junk in comparrison to TUC and not expect to be called on it. You can't expect people to take somebody serious when you have no engineering degree and act like a child when people want you to discuss your work. I agree that you have something to protect and it's not proprietary knowledge/design. Some may feel that you are being singled out unfairly. However they must not realize the contraversey that surrounds TUC or have witnessed the horrible bedside manner of it's owner.

You don't hire just any regular old guy off the street to work on your car, perform surgery or fly a plane for that matter. Why is that ???

I could go on, but it's not worth it. I would also have to say it would be impossible for DS to have a rational and honest discussion.

Nicely done summation mdabb.

Steve Williams said:

where exactly on the gear did you apply it

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here's the picture of the Innersound ESL ES300... not nice to look at, but it worked in my opinion...

I usually apply it at solder points, transformer, fuse, hookup wires, capacitor. Circuit board of MBL dac, transport mechanism of MBL cd player.

By the way, I am limiting my participation in this thread to AVM only, my experience, my observation... and I don't know everything

Personally, I will stay far away from the Blue Goo. No one is going to want to repair gear that has been "treated" with this crap. Has anyone studied the long-terms effects of this goo on circuit cards, signal traces, and solder joints? I should also point out that the resale value of any gear treated with Blue Goo is probably somewhere close to zero which is also about the amount of electronic knowledge of the average person that is "painting" the insides of their gear most probably.

Dimfer said:

...here's the picture of the Innersound ESL ES300... not nice to look at, but it worked in my opinion...

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Nice amp and I own the Sanders Sound version. Dimfer, did you consult Roger before you did this in order to get his opinion of the AVM product or to ascertain any effect upon the warranty? How did you determine that it had made an improvement in SQ?

/Ken

AVM fluid

I'm just thinking out loud here....

While I do see why dampening some things may be beneficial, however as whole how effective could it possibly be when different materials resonate at certain frequencies. Would it be worth while to apply AVM to say a transformer housing and many other parts if what's internal is still vibrating ??? I think about tube rings/dampers in this way. How affective could a plastic ring be at eliminating microphonics when what's inside the tube is still susceptible to air born vibration/resonating.

Sound waves can be used to bring us joy and it can be used as a weapon. For instance has anyone ever heard a sonic weapon. Plugging your ears doesn't help much, it still feels painful and causes nausea. I think if minute vibrations is a major obstacle that stands in the way of great SQ, the whole design and manufacturing process needs re-evaluated from the ground up. I'm not sure how effective an after thought may be at solving a problem that needed dealt with during the design and testing stages.

mdabb said:

I think if minute vibrations is a major obstacle that stands in the way of great SQ, the whole design and manufacturing process needs re-evaluated from the ground up. I'm not sure how effective an after thought may be at solving a problem that needed dealt with during the design and testing stages.

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Unfortunately, this is too true.... but many designers will not implement something that they think will not affect the sound if they don't measure for it. As an example of how minute vibrations can affect a piece of gear, try putting something like a DAC upside down and listen to it. Of course, do not do this to a CD transport or turntable.

The sound will obviously change - on some, it will sound better, on others, it will sound worse. This is because the internal minute vibrations will change - the transformer, capacitors, etc. will be hung upside down. I've even tried this on a tube amp.

garylkoh said:

Unfortunately, this is too true.... but many designers will not implement something that they think will not affect the sound if they don't measure for it. As an example of how minute vibrations can affect a piece of gear, try putting something like a DAC upside down and listen to it. Of course, do not do this to a CD transport or turntable.

The sound will obviously change - on some, it will sound better, on others, it will sound worse. This is because the internal minute vibrations will change - the transformer, capacitors, etc. will be hung upside down. I've even tried this on a tube amp.

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Gary,

That is the purpose of using something like the Herbies SuperSonic Stabilizers (1 or generally 2) on top of a component in different places (or stacked) on the component. But you have to listen for the best effect and placement.

http://herbiesaudiolab.net/stable.htm

Stacked pair:



They are most effective when used on a piece of equipment that is sitting on compliant feet.

Rich

Does the Supersonic Stabilizers bring us back to the VPI Magic Bricks? Maybe the magic behind the Magic Bricks was their mass.

RUR said:

Nice amp and I own the Sanders Sound version. Dimfer, did you consult Roger before you did this in order to get his opinion of the AVM product or to ascertain any effect upon the warranty? How did you determine that it had made an improvement in SQ?

/Ken

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I bet the warranty is out the window.

mep said:

Does the Supersonic Stabilizers bring us back to the VPI Magic Bricks? Maybe the magic behind the Magic Bricks was their mass.

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I don't think so. These are not for mass placement, though you can add lead weights or something if you need more mass. From my experimenting they have affect placed on different places on the top of some equipment (not all) and it is dependent upon what is vibrating inside of the chassis and again is more effective with compliant feet. But at $25 each and with a money back return guarantee for 90 days it is worth an audition. You have to experiment because you can over damp the equipment and you have to find what you feel balances the highs, mids, and bass.

Rich

mep said:

Personally, I will stay far away from the Blue Goo. No one is going to want to repair gear that has been "treated" with this crap. Has anyone studied the long-terms effects of this goo on circuit cards, signal traces, and solder joints? I should also point out that the resale value of any gear treated with Blue Goo is probably somewhere close to zero which is also about the amount of electronic knowledge of the average person that is "painting" the insides of their gear most probably.

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AVM can be easily peeled off leaving no residue. I was gifted a bottle by Dimfer himself a few years back and have used it exclusively for small signal tubes in my tube phonostages. They are impervious to tube heat so I see no reason for it to be melting anywhere else. I've no measurements to back what I'm going to say next but AVM is better than the two types of dampers that I'd been using prior in dealing with microphonics. I didn't paint the town blue because I was afraid that the AVM might cause components to keep heat in. Other than tubes I would apply AVM to transformers. However, all my transformers are already potted at the factory so I see no potential benefit in coating their casings.

My comment about AVM and Foil e.g. "That's all?" is not a knock on AVM or Foil but rather that these are things that aren't exactly rocket science to do. So if this is the trade secret of TUC, well, it's not exactly a secret. Internal vibration damping is a common thing now, so common that it isn't even mentioned at all by marketing departments or if they are they're just mentioned in passing.

Again given the stance DS takes, we will never know. With respect to those that have had good experiences with TUC, more power to you guys. You took the risk and got the rewards you were after. How could that ever be a bad thing? For those that don't want to make the leap of faith, I honestly can't blame you. 100% buy back guarantees may be enough assurance for some people but apparently not all.

The AVM stuff is almost $100 for a small vial. After reading the product description and ignoring the testimonials, I decided to look online for something similar. If AVM is reducing vibration, I would guess that it must be doing it by turning motion into low grade heat. There are two other products I found online that do the same; they are marketed to industry (marine, automotive) and used to either quiet enclosures or structures, such as car chassis. Silent Running is one brand and it sells for between $60 and $100 a gallon for their two grades. It is produced by a company, in business since 1962, that makes industrial and electronics laminates (PC boards etc.). Their SR1000 formulation, targeted for the marine market has received US Coast Guard, EU and Lloyds certifications. They do not mention whether their coating can be used on electronics. I may buy the small size to coat my incredibly loud DirecTV HD DVR chassis. The online videos showing a compressor comparison seems quite marvelous. I know that this product is vetted and should work on the appropriate substrate, as long as I apply it properly. Naturally, the company does not say it is magic but rather "works by a viscoelastic chemical process that absorbs vibration energy and converts that energy it into a low grade heat that is then disperses throughout the surface of the product, therefore reducing the airborne noise and reducing the need for absorption materials. Silent Running best attenuates mid to low range frequencies."

My other concern with this type of coating is that it may act as an insulator. I would think that as an audio equipment engineer, you should want to know in advance that you will be using a coating that transforms vibration into heat and design your chassis and heatsinking accordingly. Putting it all over transistors and regulators seems to me like a bad idea. Finally, my main concern would be safety. I would want to know the tests (UL or other) that show the properties of AVM for electrical conductivity, fire, heat/insulation, max temp. Apparently AVM can be cleaned up with water before it cures. I'm not sure how to think about that viz. application to circuitry.

William

JackD201 said:

AVM can be easily peeled off leaving no residue. I was gifted a bottle by Dimfer himself a few years back and have used it exclusively for small signal tubes in my tube phonostages. They are impervious to tube heat so I see no reason for it to be melting anywhere else. I've no measurements to back what I'm going to say next but AVM is better than the two types of dampers that I'd been using prior in dealing with microphonics. I didn't paint the town blue because I was afraid that the AVM might cause components to keep heat in. Other than tubes I would apply AVM to transformers. However, all my transformers are already potted at the factory so I see no potential benefit in coating their casings.

My comment about AVM and Foil e.g. "That's all?" is not a knock on AVM or Foil but rather that these are things that aren't exactly rocket science to do. So if this is the trade secret of TUC, well, it's not exactly a secret. Internal vibration damping is a common thing now, so common that it isn't even mentioned at all by marketing departments or if they are they're just mentioned in passing.

Again given the stance DS takes, we will never know. With respect to those that have had good experiences with TUC, more power to you guys. You took the risk and got the rewards you were after. How could that ever be a bad thing? For those that don't want to make the leap of faith, I honestly can't blame you. 100% buy back guarantees may be enough assurance for some people but apparently not all.

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Jack,

In my case not only did I take the chance (my first chance being some upgraded amps) was to take 4 trips to visit David in the summer of 2008, June of 2009, January of 2010, and again May of 2010 for the purposes of auditioning components and equipment and having work done. These trips were over 1600 miles round trip each, but I thought that they were worth my time and effort. There is much more work that goes into David's work than what you have mentioned, but I am not knowledgeable enough or at liberty to divulge what some of the work that is entailed. David does work on particular portions of the circuitry in machines and makes an effort to reduce noise and quiet the machines with damping and shielding and replaces as many as several hundred parts in an upgrade. Amongst other things there is often replacement of such things as IEC inlets and RCA and XLR connectors.

Rich

Several hundred parts seems like an awful lot of parts to replace. In order to safely remove parts from a circuit board requires skill and the right equipment so you don't damage or lift traces from the circuit board. All of the techs who work for me that do soldering/desoldering have at least 3 different J-standard soldering certifications. I wouldn't want some hack with a $10 soldering iron from Radio Shack touching my gear. You have to understand what temperatures to use for different components and have the right tools and the right skills to perform this type of work.

Hi Rich,

Oddly enough I totally understand DS' position about keeping what he does close to his vest. Most especially if the procedures and components are such that they do not qualify for IP legal protection. His website does point out that more than vibration damping is done and one can even make inferences as to some of the favored components when upgrading.

We have to admit though that more than anything, it's the posturing that puts people off. It is also the aggressive "if you wan't to know, pay for it first" posturing that invites the attacks. It may be standard practice in a poker game to pay to see but isn't that also within the context of figuring out if someone is just bluffing?

In any case, DS says his business is doing great. If he wants to be secretive and have the Coca-Cola secret formula equivalent of the audio mod world, that is definitely his call. If DS cooled his heels for a second and stopped taking all the negative things personally he just might find a whole lot of things in these comments that could improve his business model. Again if he chooses to play Sonny, instead of Michael, that is still his choice.

As for me, I'd just be more comfortable working with someone I could discuss options and definitely would not work with someone who "shows me the hand". On my side of the world one likely gets shown the fist in return. I suppose you can say the asian lack of litigiousness is a major factor in why we are so often polite to a fault

Jack

Jack

you say things so much better than we on this side of the world.

JackD201 said:

As for me, I'd just be more comfortable working with someone I could discuss options and definitely would not work with someone who "shows me the hand". On my side of the world one likely gets shown the fist in return. I suppose you can say the asian lack of litigiousness is a major factor in why we are so often polite to a fault

Jack

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Jack-Is that a pollite way of saying that where you live if you disrespect someone you just might get an ass beating and no one is going to take it to court?

Yes sir, to go further, if you take it to court after getting an ass whipping you started you're two times a wuss.

Let's say I hit on someone's wife or girlfriend and her husband gets ticked off and instead of me backing off we had fisticuffs. Unless I was down and he continued to beat me or he used some sort of weapon, including ordinary objects like bottles or pool cues, any case I file against him would probably get thrown out instantly. It really would get thrown out instantly if say the extent of my injuries were a couple of cuts and bruises or a simple shiner. I'd also get some pretty disgusted looks from the cops and the fiscal too.

Conversely if I won the fight, his charges on me would likely stick.

Makes a good case for self policing IMO.