why not the perfect reproduction?

microstrip

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+1 ;)

that and people's rooms.

The importance you wisely put on rooms suggests for another complementary thread.

Room acoustics is considered a subjective issue, as it reflects preferences, and we have many alternatives - F. Toole considers that we should have rooms for professional use for sound engineers and rooms for "pleasure listening" for consumers , as these two groups have different requirements.

I think that, shameless, most audiophile electronics should also considered on this perspective.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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I think that, shameless, most audiophile electronics should also considered on this perspective.

Aren't they? I look for electronics that are as accurate as I can afford, understanding that coloration will be unavoidable in my speakers and my room, and that I can adjust color to taste, all the way down to a song by song basis, if I want to. Many audiophiles choose sources and electronics that color the signal to their liking and pay much more for it. What are we shamelessly missing?

Tim
 

Gregadd

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Would it be a good idea to listen outside with a live feed? Thus we eliminate the room and the source.
 

Lee

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It was spooky

Yes.

And to answer Microstrip's question, I definitely believe we are getting closer every 5 years to more realistic and natural sound.

And I whole-heartedly agree with Mike, R2R is really special. We have two modded R2Rs we sometimes use to record and they capture the event in a different and better way. The lack of portability is an issue for a live two 2 track label like our operation.
 

microstrip

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Aren't they? I look for electronics that are as accurate as I can afford, understanding that coloration will be unavoidable in my speakers and my room, and that I can adjust color to taste, all the way down to a song by song basis, if I want to. Many audiophiles choose sources and electronics that color the signal to their liking and pay much more for it. What are we shamelessly missing?

Tim

I have found that there are many things that I can get from the electronics that I can not get from the room acoustics, no matter I move my speakers, my diffusors, abosrbers and so on. They are complementary.
A well treated room will enhance audiophile electronics.

BTW, why are room colorations good colorations (associated to preferences) and electronic colorations bad colorations (associated by a few to incompetent design) ? Please do not answer me "because it is easier to measure the second ones" ...
 

tony ky ma

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Would it be a good idea to listen outside with a live feed? Thus we eliminate the room and the source.
Without the help of electric power ( amp and speaker), only the bowl can help for a out door concert that you can hear the real timbre, if sound from the speaker again, that is back to squar one
tony ma
 

JackD201

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BTW, why are room colorations good colorations (associated to preferences) and electronic colorations bad colorations (associated by a few to incompetent design) ? Please do not answer me "because it is easier to measure the second ones" ...

Because it fits that particular paradigm? Hehehe. Just teasing Tim. :)
 

Phelonious Ponk

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BTW, why are room colorations good colorations (associated to preferences) and electronic colorations bad colorations (associated by a few to incompetent design) ?

When it comes to electronics, my opinion is that the only good coloration is the one that can be bi-passed. I accept coloration in transducers because it can't be avoided, and in rooms because I don't want to live in an anechoic chamber and some room gained is anticipated in the recording and mastering process. Coloration in electronics is, in my view, like creating tone controls with no controls. It makes absolutely no sense. YMMV.

Tim
 

microstrip

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When it comes to electronics, my opinion is that the only good coloration is the one that can be bi-passed. I accept coloration in transducers because it can't be avoided, and in rooms because I don't want to live in an anechoic chamber and some room gained is anticipated in the recording and mastering process. Coloration in electronics is, in my view, like creating tone controls with no controls. It makes absolutely no sense. YMMV.

Tim

Tim,
You are oversimplifying the role of the room colorations - room gain is just a small part of it. It provides (or enhances) spaciousness and all the subjective qualities many want to ignore.
Also, each electronic unit has its type of sonic signature, it is why we do listening tests to select them , and have preferences. BTW, how do you select loudspeakers?
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Tim,
You are oversimplifying the role of the room colorations - room gain is just a small part of it. It provides (or enhances) spaciousness and all the subjective qualities many want to ignore.
Also, each electronic unit has its type of sonic signature, it is why we do listening tests to select them , and have preferences. BTW, how do you select loudspeakers?

I didn't mean to oversimplify the role of room colorations, micro, I just wasn't writing a comprehensive post on the subject. I suppose I agree that all electronics leave a sonic imprint to the point that they are all imperfect. But to me, those words, "sonic signature," imply tone by design. Many high quality electronics have it. I will personally not own it again. I don't ever want to again enter the infinite loop of matching and compensating signatures through swaps, upgrades and tweaks. It strikes me as a complete waste of time.

And while the above "But to me," "I will personally" and "I don't ever" should render it unnecessary, I'll add: YMMV.

Tim
 

Bruce B

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But to me, those words, "sonic signature," imply tone by design. Many high quality electronics have it. I will personally not own it again. I don't ever want to again enter the infinite loop of matching and compensating signatures through swaps, upgrades and tweaks. It strikes me as a complete waste of time. Tim

Don't all manufacturers "voice" their products. I know speaker designers do. I know they voice their speakers with certain amps and cables.
 

microstrip

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No. Not unless "neutral" is a voice.

Tim

We debated it previously - absolute neutrality dos not exist in audio, because the final objective of high-end is to create an illusion and is subjective, e.g. we know people react differently to room acoustics. Once one of the rings of the chain is imperfect, all the chain becomes imperfect.

The way we get the illusion can be debated. Although I have no proof of it, for me it is now evident that a few minimal colorations (strategical imperfections or distortions, resulting from a deliberate intention of the designers) can increase my perception of soundstage, micro-dynamics, envelopment and suggestion of presence of acoustic and classical music recordings.

It seems that some people feel these colorations are unacceptable, as they spoil their enjoyment of recordings or just by principle (the less, the better).

I think that most of this divergence is due to what we expect from recordings and the way we listen. We have many acoustic experts in this forum, with very different views on small room acoustics. I have been reading some literature on this subject, and found they diverge in many fundamental aspects with one exception - that acoustic treatment is needed. :eek:

Hi-end debate is interesting, however it is very complex : we have one common target - listening to recordings - but listening to a recording has a different meaning for some of us. This is the strongest limitation to perfect reproduction.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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We debated it previously - absolute neutrality dos not exist in audio, because the final objective of high-end is to create an illusion and is subjective, e.g. we know people react differently to room acoustics. Once one of the rings of the chain is imperfect, all the chain becomes imperfect.

I wouldn't argue with any of that except the objective of "high-end." High-end does not speak with one voice or have a singular objective. The objective of "high-fidelity" is in it's name - the highest possible fidelity to the recording; a "wire with gain." Not all "high-end" designers have abandoned that goal to subjectivism.

The way we get the illusion can be debated. Although I have no proof of it, for me it is now evident that a few minimal colorations (strategical imperfections or distortions, resulting from a deliberate intention of the designers) can increase my perception of soundstage, micro-dynamics, envelopment and suggestion of presence of acoustic and classical music recordings.

I wouldn't argue with any of that, because you have the critical word, "perception" in there. Take it away and I would tell you that while some noise and distortion in a signal can probably create a an illusion of breadth and suggest presence, they can only mask detail. But you perceive what you perceive.

It seems that some people feel these colorations are unacceptable, as they spoil their enjoyment of recordings or just by principle (the less, the better).

Yes, I enjoy the best recordings the most when noise and distortion is minimized.

I think that most of this divergence is due to what we expect from recordings and the way we listen. We have many acoustic experts in this forum, with very different views on small room acoustics. I have been reading some literature on this subject, and found they diverge in many fundamental aspects with one exception - that acoustic treatment is needed. :eek:

Hi-end debate is interesting, however it is very complex : we have one common target - listening to recordings - but listening to a recording has a different meaning for some of us. This is the strongest limitation to perfect reproduction.

Amen.

The post you quoted from me, by the way, was merely a response to the idea that all audio components have deliberate coloration. They clearly do not. Many in the pro and consumer designers aim for a complete lack of coloration. None reach that goal in absolute terms. The best of them are there for all practical (audible) purposes. The remaining weak link is transducers and rooms and, of as you have eloquently pointed out, the varying perceptions and objectives of listeners. Many don't seem to want transparency at all. Viva la difference.

Tim
 
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“No. Not unless "neutral" is a voice.”

Neutral is a lack of voice or bias.

I spent about 15 years developing new types of acoustic transducers and a good bit of time on a “full range” driver. While I stopped reading hifi magazines when Audio went under (Gene used to ask me to contribute occasionally) I have continued to work in loudspeaker design and scientific acoustics in the 15 years since, so to the degree that matters, here is what I see.

Any coloration you can hear in a loudspeaker is normally a fairly large feature in one domain or another (by that I mean one can examine time vs energy, energy vs frequency, energy vs frequency vs time, harmonic addition and so on.)

The problem is, loudspeakers are not perfect, they are not ruler flat, they occupy physical locations, spray the sound all over with little regard to where and even one single driver can occupy many locations in time depending on frequency. When you make a multi-way speaker you have multiplied that issue and opportunities to not make a single radiation.

We always think one dimensionally, when you add two signals with resistors, that is coherent and one dimension. We measure in one dimension, one microphone, but sound propagates in and we hear in 3 dimensions and that is where our hearing and measuring depart.

Around 1980, I was fortunate enough to work for a company that bought an early TEF machine, that is Time Delay Spectrometry the brainchild of the late Dick Heyser who while I was in high School conceived of the result of the loudspeakers I would develop starting about 25 years later.

When developing a full range driver or speaker system back in the 80’s, one automatically listened to it very carefully many times. A re-occurring theme was that changing something in say the radiator would invariably change the measured result and made some audible change. The problem was that once you reach a certain level of defects, you find that maybe recordings A, B and C sound better but recording D and E sound worse.
This dilemma would not be IF these speakers were for me, I would simply tune to my taste.

The problem is these will be used by others who do not share my taste.
The best solution was to go toward what ever made the measurement look more like the technical ideal.
The closer you get to the ideal, the “simpler” the sound becomes, the more like the real thing it is and the fewer clues there are to tell you it’s a loudspeaker. It didn’t make recordings sound better or worse just clearer / simpler if that makes sense.

What is perfection anyway?
How about this definition, a state of reproduction that has the ability to suggest to your brain that you are really are hearing into another environment though a large window in front of you.

All that requires is every stage to be correctly done and faithful, adding / changing as little as possible all the way to your ears.
The difference between headphones (that aren’t perfect either but at least don’t act on your room) and loudspeaker imaging, ought to be a big red flag for people looking at “where the problem really is” in addition to the normal culprits.
Best,
Tom Danley
 

Gregadd

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The search for high fidelity reads like a good mystery novel. The more layers we remove the more the identity of guilty culprit changes. Just as we may not always assume the butler did it, we may not always assume the transducer or room is the problem. Often the the murder is the result of a conspiracy. All the links in the chain conspire to lead us astray. That's enough mixed metaphors for today.
 

microstrip

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(...)
What is perfection anyway?
How about this definition, a state of reproduction that has the ability to suggest to your brain that you are really are hearing into another environment though a large window in front of you.
(...)

Your definition makes me thing of the argument of Peter Walker of Quad about electrostatic loudspeakers:

Imagine I am speaking towards you. Now put a thin sheet of cellophane between us - you will not notice it on the sound. Next remove me and make the cellophane sheet vibrate exactly how I was making it vibrate.
You have perfect sound reproduction!

I am reproducing the argument from memories - I hope I am not changing it too much.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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All that requires is every stage to be correctly done and faithful, adding / changing as little as possible all the way to your ears.

I agree with this completely, Tom.

The difference between headphones (that aren’t perfect either but at least don’t act on your room) and loudspeaker imaging, ought to be a big red flag for people looking at “where the problem really is” in addition to the normal culprits.

Not quite sure I get what you're driving at here. Could you elaborate on what it is you're hearing in phones vs. speakers and what that indicates?

Tim
 
“Your definition makes me thing of the argument of Peter Walker of Quad about electrostatic loudspeakers:

Imagine I am speaking towards you. Now put a thin sheet of cellophane between us - you will not notice it on the sound. Next remove me and make the cellophane sheet vibrate exactly how I was making it vibrate.
You have perfect sound reproduction!”

Microstrip, It is weirdly curious you say that.

The company I worked for was a NASA contractor, my job was working on sound sources for acoustic levitation. My Boss was an acoustician who had come from England after the war. He had been part of the team at Mullard that developed sonar transducers during the war etc.

Anyway, he was a hifi buff and loved speakers too and after he found I built my own electrostatic speakers, it wasn’t long before he asked me to fix his ESL-63’s. By fix, he meant neutering the spark gap limiters that interrupted his listening.

I took a deep breath and said sure.

These were different than any of my flat panel speakers AND they did a cool thing, it “sounded like” the origin of the sound was right behind the actual speaker.

The confusing part for me was why, with my large panels, the sound was somewhere off in front but this was different and the answer was slowly clear once the grill was removed, THIS was no ordinary speaker.


This speaker produces / radiates a simple spherical segment, a part of a sphere and so your ear hear that as a source somewhere behind the actual driver. Thinking of your clear film experiment, consider that if you were behind the speaker, the sound radiates from your mouth in a forward in all directions, a sphere, spherical radiation. Because of the obstruction of your head, less sound goes the rear.

AS the sound reaches the film, it presses the center first (being a spherical disturbance) and then progressively to the edges.
The ESL-63 uses a flat film that is divided into concentric rings. Pict 1

http://www.audiodesignguide.com/esl/esl63ph.jpg


The signal to each ring is electrically delayed using a “delay line” or multiple all pass filters as shown in picture . Here, the circuit delays each ring a little bit, enough to “act like” the progressing of a spherical wave though the element.

http://mark.rehorst.com/Quad_ESL-63/Quad ESL-63 Simulation Schematic.png

The cool thing about this was that the shape of the sphere was set by the time delay and not the size of the source so the behavior was more or less the same over a broad bandwidth. . A problem with all the large ESS panels I made was the frequency dependant directivity, which in turn makes the frequency response change with distance .


Fast forward 15 years, to 12 years ago, I am tasked with designing a speaker for commercial sound where ALL the acoustic problems are much worse and the needed sound power much higher.
THAT single point source is exactly what I wanted to create but in a speaker that could go 10, 20, 30 dB louder and has constant directivity for much larger spaces.

My approach was to progressively assemble the radiation in frequency and time. Scroll down to Fig#5 here;

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/pdf/danley_tapped.pdf

The staggered “progressively assembled wavefront” design also compensates for the phase shift in the crossovers such that a speaker like the SH-50 can (like an ESL-63) re-produce a square wave, over a broad band. In the SH-50 doing it from fair to near perfect from about 240Hz spanning the low / mid and Mid / high crossover to about 2700Hz and not just in one position in front.

It radiates the same way as the sheet of film excited by a source at the apex, a segment of a point source.
Best,
Tom Danley

Tim
Well I was trying to make people think about ” How large” the difference the imaging is between the room and headphones. Both kinds of transducers have flaws but a big difference is how much direct sound remains relative to the reflected sound that competes with it.

I used to urge people interested in this stuff to set their stereo up outdoors where there are no walls.
Sure the bass is toned down BUT you will hear imaging like you’re not used with them indoors. Then I realized most people aren’t’ crazy like me and will do that so the headphone approach seemed like an alternative..
The problem is the room sound, sounds just like the direct sound, except all the time information is gone as the reflected sound is a later partial version of the actual thing, but coming from another and wrong direction.
 

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