Technics SP-10 MKII

silviajulieta said:

Dear Mike Lavigne: Good to hear that from you. So, the only experience that you decided not to have is the SP-10 naked version. I respect that.

Btw, I have almost the same experiences you posted and even that I'm not confused on cause and effect either this DD TT naked project is a learning one that shows that many of what we already learned through experiences as the ones you posted has land to improve and this fact alone is what could help for we could grow-up in the TT whole subject.

That you decided not to try is fine with me and you have good reason for not do it. In my case as in several other persons we have good reasons too for live that naked TT experiences. That's all, I came here only to share those naked TT experiences.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

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Raul,

to be clear; it's not that i'm not curious about a 'naked' SP-10. i no longer have one to try. i sold my Mk2 when i reciieved my Dobbins MK3, and then traded in my Mk3 to Dobbins for 'The Beat'.

i know Steve Dobbins has tried SP-10's 'naked' (without shell) as well as free standing, and with many dozens of different plinths. i know he 'prefers' substaintial plinths. i'll differ to his experience on the subject but also respect your perspective too.

i could easily understand that removing the 70's Technics shell from an SP-10 would improve the performance over a free standing stock SP-10. my Dobbins SP-10 Mk3 had the shell removed before installation into the Dobbins plinth because Steve found that the shell restricted ultimate performance.

but; saying that a 'naked' SP-10 performs better than an SP-10 in a well engineered plinth would understandably bring skepticism from most people. but healthy skepticism about that approach does not mean you are not correct; only that people will need to try it for themselves before they will agree.

your problem is that you are going the opposite direction from the tt development that i know about. the direction is absolutely that best performance is related to ridgidity and lack of resonance between the plinth and arm board.

best regards,

Mike

Dear mep: It is not only one person, you have a misunderstood about. On three different threads you can read from other persons and from those posts I know where the people lives and I can tell you again " comes over the world ".

Anyway, till you try it your words are only speculations with no true and real foundation. Why go on with?

regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Mike Lavigne said:

Raul,

to be clear; it's not that i'm not curious about a 'naked' SP-10. i no longer have one to try. i sold my Mk2 when i reciieved my Dobbins MK3, and then traded in my Mk3 to Dobbins for 'The Beat'.

i know Steve Dobbins has tried SP-10's 'naked' (without shell) as well as free standing, and with many dozens of different plinths. i know he 'prefers' substaintial plinths. i'll differ to his experience on the subject but also respect your perspective too.

i could easily understand that removing the 70's Technics shell from an SP-10 would improve the performance over a free standing stock SP-10. my Dobbins SP-10 Mk3 had the shell removed before installation into the Dobbins plinth because Steve found that the shell restricted ultimate performance.

but; saying that a 'naked' SP-10 performs better than an SP-10 in a well engineered plinth would understandably bring skepticism from most people. but healthy skepticism about that approach does not mean you are not correct; only that people will need to try it for themselves before they will agree.

your problem is that you are going the opposite direction from the tt development that i know about. the direction is absolutely that best performance is related to ridgidity and lack of resonance between the plinth and arm board.

best regards,

Mike

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Dear Mike Lavigne: I see. Agree with you: " people will need to try it for themselves before they will agree. ". This is eactly what I'm said through my posts here and I'm not waiting that after they test it they agree, what I'm waiting is that shares their experiences and that's all.

++++ " your problem is that you are going the opposite direction from the tt development that i know about " +++, well, IMHO is not my problem but an additional/alternative " road to arrive there " .

++++ " the direction is absolutely that best performance is related to ridgidity and lack of resonance between the plinth and arm board. " ++++

well, again that's only one direction. The plinth is a focus of internal resonances ( all plinths has its own resonances and its own way to damp or dissipate the ones coming from the TT and from the platform where TT is mounted. ), these plinth resonances that comes and are generated from every where affect the cartridge signal even very tiny resonances that are imperceptible for us are capted/captured by the very high cartridge sensitivity that works as a microphone.

Till today I don't know and I never read a scientific studies/research and tests that proved that exist a plinth that is " dead silence " and that dissipate and don't keep any resonances coming from the TT it self and external by own plinth feedback or from the TT platform, the same for the arm board that one way or the other is " connected " to the TT plinth.

In this environment ( how a TT is surrounded whit ) IMHO the best way to go is to isolate 100% the tonearm from that TT plinth. and I mean 100% not 99.9999%. Now, the second step and several next steps is on the stand alone arm board that could give us certain in that will work just right with no related problems and no related geometry or rigidity subjects.

All the persons involved in this naked project are right now trying to " fine tunning " all those " steps " need it to everything works first rate. What all of them are experiences on quality performance level is way better that what they heard on plinthed TT alternative and this are experiences even that there are somethings that are not " perfect " on the naked project.

It is true that a plinth on TT ( for some designs is a must to have : BD designs. ) is a way to diminish those resonances we are talking about and this can happen only if we attain a stellar plinth design. Going naked/no-plinth with DD TT design is a different way to go where we have to take focus only in the kind of footers where the TT seats, these footers will take the task to dissipate very fast the TT own generated resonances and impede any feedback of those resonances or any other non related TT resonances.

As I posted always exist trade-offs and certainly plinthed or not there are trade-offs: which ones are the best for you? this is up to you depending which ones are your quality performance priorities.

As I posted too I'm not coming here for any one could agree with me: I'm here only to share my experiences and other people experiences on the whole subject. This is not a " class/lesson " about TT/tonearm design but only an alternnatives taked by some us audio amateurs that love MUSIC.


Regards and enjoy the music,
raul.

Dear mep: Yes, the TT platfform works in someway as a plinth but this is not what I'm refering to and you knpwed!.

The geometry of the tonearm is already solve almost at 100%. Do you think that all these people that like the new quality performance level they attain on this project could be heard what they heard if that tonearm subject was not " almost " solved?.

I can't do your job and with all respect please go to those Agon threads and read on the whole subject where you can find the answers for your questions.

Anyway, why do you want to know on something you just don't care or don't believe?, I think is more easy to enjoy what you have and what you believe. Don't worry about the naked project that certainly is not for you as is not for everyone but just for a selected ones.

regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

mep said:

Why do I always feel like I have just been slashed with a butterfly knife and I'm trying to find all of the places I'm bleeding from after reading one of Raul's retorts? I guess it's like the smiley face thing; throw in lots of smiley faces and you can say lots more unkind things to people. In Raul's case, you just end each post with "regards and enjoy the music" as the other person is trying to staunch the bleeding. I gotta go now as I'm slashed all over and bleeding like a stuck hog.

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don't take Raul too seriously.......stick by your guns and trust your ears. the laws of physics might be different in the 'Raul Zone'.

i'm just say'n.

silviajulieta said:

Anyway, why do you want to know on something you just don't care or don't believe?, I think is more easy to enjoy what you have and what you believe. Don't worry about the naked project that certainly is not for you as is not for everyone but just for a selected ones.
Raul.

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Being also a non native english writer, I easily understand that sometimes the expression in english can become very violent just because of the way it is written. I think that the quoted sentences are just an example of it - surely the author would not want to refer to "selected ones", just to people who want to try it.

Kind of reminded me when someone said the SOTA sounded better with its' suspension defeated. That's like saying J-Lo looks better with a small butt.

I crack myself up.

Gregadd said:

Kind of reminded me when someone said the SOTA sounded better with its' suspension defeated. That's like saying J-Lo looks better with a small butt.

I crack myself up.

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Dear Mike Lavigne: +++++ " the laws of physics might be different in the 'Raul Zone' " +++++

first there is no " Raul Zone " and second the law of physics are " the laws of physics " for every one, no exception. Things IMHO are very simple but at the same time complex because in audio and especially on analog we don't have precise explanations why the " laws of physics " accomplish but what we heard is something different, something different that has a scientific explanation but no one till today take it the time to make a research on so many audio analog subjects.

We have a lot of audio/analog theories that we all can't confirm by what we are hearing.

I can't be against laws of physics and I did/do not against theories with good foundations either but I almost always don't take ( on audio ) anything by " the true and nothing but the true " ( it does not matters whom said it or comes from. ) before I test it in my own system, comparison's tests is IMHO the way to go in any audio subject we have interest .
Btw, Mike think: how much energy could generate a massive TT platter against a more light TT platter? do you know what to do with all that " massive " energy generated for the former TT against the ligthly one and where goes that energy and its feedback?

As you said it: our ears are on command, I would like to add that the ears can't tell the whoile historty but important and critical subject to interpret what your ears are hearing are your own whole knowledge/skill level on those differnt audio subjects.


Anyway, only my thoughts.

Btw, yes Microstrip that was what I try to say: thank you.


Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Gregadd said:

Kind of reminded me when someone said the SOTA sounded better with its' suspension defeated.

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You have to look how people used it. I owned one of the first versions of SOTA (high compliance suspension turntable, and in some conditions the resonance of the suspension/belt system could make some wow effects. I remember that the Eminent Technology was problematic with some versions - the whole chassis would start wobbling. In these cases part of the solution was defeating the suspension. I remember some people called this effect of "dynamic wow" - although I never read about static wow.

mep said:

(...) The ET-2 is a pain in the ass to set up and to keep it set up though. I'm hoping that with the SP-10 MKII/SME 312S combo I won't look back.

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The ET2 is not an easy arm to set up, but once you have it done correctly it is not easy to beat. The SME has a different sound - less delicate, but fuller. I have no experience with the 312S, only with the SME 309 and SME V. Anyway, the ET2 will sound great in the SP10 and only needs an extra hole for the fixing screw ...

After I got the Forsell I sold my collection of turntables and tonearms, excepting the ET2 and a Sumiko MDC800 "The Arm" - I could not part with them.

mep said:

I agree the ET-2 is not easy to beat. I have tried with the most recent example being the FR-64s. The new plinth I just bought for my SP-10 MKII comes with two blank armboards, but I don't think the armboards will allow setup of the ET-2 due to their location. Albert Porter is the guy who told me to buy the SME 312S and he thinks the combo of the SP-10/SME 312s is a world-beater. We shall see.

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Although hifi advise is a private and subjective affair, I valuate Albert Porter advice highly, as we share many preferences in sound type. Also, following and discussing his system at audiogon for long years was a very interesting and enlightening experience.

Dear mep: +++++ " the combo of the SP-10/SME 312s is a world-beater. " +++++

against what or which ones?, speaks on that way with out a precise comparisons IMHO means almost nothing you can argue about.

IMHO at analog level you need to specify the source/phono cartridge for things could have some value. I know very well that tonearm that's a good one but nothing " to die for ", at least not with Mr. Porter's cartridges that I know too very well ( Supreme/Coralstone /Shure. ).

A tonearm with out cartridge IMHO is only that " a tonearm " where we can't say if it is good or not till we match it with matched phono cartridges. I hope your cartridge be a good match with the SME.

Btw, IMHO with the Technics you can use almost any tonearm. Think: what impede that or where are the trade offs choosing any tonearm for " that TT " ? when there is no phono cartridge there.

IMHO the closer relationship between two analog audio items is: tonearm and the phono cartridge, exist a very close dependence on that relationsship for attain not only a good quality performance but to achieve the best that cartridge has for shows you.

As always only an opinion.

Regards and enjoy the music,
raul.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.