Technics SP-10 MKII

Dumb question time. The Technics is direct drive right? Seems that I have always heard that belt drive is the way to go. So how does the performance of a standard SP10 compare to say the Rega P3? How about a fully tweaked SP10 compare with the VPI Classic or Scout. I own a Rega P3-24 and really can't afford to upgrade but now you guys have my tummy churning yet again.

es347 said:

Dumb question time. The Technics is direct drive right? Seems that I have always heard that belt drive is the way to go. So how does the performance of a standard SP10 compare to say the Rega P3? How about a fully tweaked SP10 compare with the VPI Classic or Scout. I own a Rega P3-24 and really can't afford to upgrade but now you guys have my tummy churning yet again.

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I certainly am not advocating or suggesting that you purchase a Teres turntable. Chris Brady of Teres for years made only belt drive driven turntables. Then he designed the Certus turntables with Direct Drive and then released a more inexpensive method for working with his Belt Drive driven turntalbes- the Verus Motor. Since then, he only sells the Direct Drive Certus Turntables and the Verus Motors for belt driven turntables.

This is a link to a white paper that Chris has on his website regarding the Certus motor where he discusses motor designs:

http://www.teresaudio.com/manuals/teres_speed_tech.pdf

Rich

mep said:

One or the other will be up for sale when this is over. We will see which one goes packing.

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Then you'll have extra money for a better tape machine!

mep said:

Trouble in Paradise-I ordered a plinth for my SP-10 MKII from a guy who came recommended to me . I now have the SP-10 MKII table and the brand new SME 312S tonearm so all I'm waiting for is the plinth. On 5 March the guy who is building the plinth tells me that he had 4 layers glued together and it might be ready for the finish on 12 March. Yesterday I sent him an email and asked him for an update. Now it seems he has a CNC shop cut the hole for the table to fit into the plinth. He tells me last night in an email that the CNC shop cut the hole in the middle of the table instead of offset to the left side and he is contemplating cutting off material from the left side and gluing it to the right side! And then when you think the story can't get any wackier, he tells me that the guy who puts the finish on the plinths just got thrown in jail for non-payment of child support. Thankfully I have only given this guy 50% of the money. I have asked him to refund my money. I hope he does and I don't have to go through Pay Pal to fight for my money.

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Mark,

So sorry to hear of your plight. I hope that you can find a reasonable alternative. I suspect that the OMA offering that I mentioned earlier in the thread is more than you wish to spend, but it is an alternative.

Rich

actually quartz direct-drive iis the way to go. it is decidedly high-tech.

mep said:

Good news. The guy just refunded my money. On to plan B.

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Mark,

Congrats. I look forward to hearing about plan B.

Rich

mep said:

I just bought an SP-10 MKII on Audiogon that looks to be in very nice condition and is promised to have no isues with either the power supply or table. It does come with the orignal box and all the original packing material which is nice.

It does not come with a plinth and I'm wondering if there are any fellow SP-10 MKII owners here and if so, what you are using for plinths. I would also like to know what tonearms people are using.

And MikeL, if you are reading this, since you used to own a VPI TNT table close to the one I own, what are your thoughts about the SP-10 MKII compared to the sound of the VPI?

Mark

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Dear mep: For years I supported the DD TT alternative and from 2-3 years now and after in deep research I support a non-plinth/naked DD TTs as the SP-10s, Denons, Victor and the like. IMHO no plinthed SP10 I know/heard comes close to a SP10 naked version quality performance: the naked one almost make dust the plinted one. So if you decide for a naked-fashion the very first advantage is that you don't have to put to much $$$, it is almost by free.

My advise too is that the tonearm for a TT naked-version be a stand alone one.

I'm not alone on this subject, there are some other persons that today think in the same way and some of them after try and tested different build material plinths. IMHO the best plinth is NO plinth.

Here you can read something about: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1283151240&openflup&10&4#10

http://picasaweb.google.com/hfeiner/NUDETURNTABLEPROJECT?authkey=Gv1sRgCLeeoJToqbeJOg#

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1283151240&openflup&14&4#14

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1283151240&openflup&34&4#34

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1283151240&openflup&47&4#47

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1294870073&openflup&25&4#25

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1294870073&openflup&49&4#49

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1294870073&openflup&72&4#72

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1294870073&openflup&150&4#150

these guys could helkp you with the TT it self and with the stand alone arm board.

Btw, one of these guys made that stand alone arm board for a ET-2 tonearm, his name: Chris. You can see too this naked SP-10 from Dgob from London:
http://cgim.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/vs.pl?vevol&zz1234730669&viewitem&o4&1301085599#item

Please don't worry how it looks but how it performs and I can tell you that shows a great and higher quality performance over the plinthed ones. IMHO the naked-version is so un-expensive that you can try it if you don't like it you always can go plinthed.


Well, as always only an opinion.


Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear mep: +++++++++++ " I appreciate the tip on the no-plinth route, but I just don't see how you can maintain correct geometry when your tonarem is not anchored to your plinth in some fashion " ++++++

well, any question you or any one can/could have on the whole subject has an answer on the links I posted. So at least give you the time to read it!.

My post is only trying to help you, ( it is not my call but yours and I don't have any benefit of any kind if you take it or not ) to achieve the best quality performance from your SP-10MK2 that unfortunately is not with a plinth but IMHO: naked with stand alone arm board. This is already tested, so there are facts not theory.


++ " Besides, it does look wacky and this hobby is wacky enough already " +++

well you an me are very different. For me nothing before or in place of QUALITY PERFORMANCE LEVEL .

Anyway, good luck with that " good loking " Technics.

regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

silviajulieta said:

Dear mep: +++++++++++ " I appreciate the tip on the no-plinth route, but I just don't see how you can maintain correct geometry when your tonarem is not anchored to your plinth in some fashion " ++++++

well, any question you or any one can/could have on the whole subject has an answer on the links I posted. So at least give you the time to read it!.

My post is only trying to help you, ( it is not my call but yours and I don't have any benefit of any kind if you take it or not ) to achieve the best quality performance from your SP-10MK2 that unfortunately is not with a plinth but IMHO: naked with stand alone arm board. This is already tested, so there are facts not theory.


++ " Besides, it does look wacky and this hobby is wacky enough already " +++

well you an me are very different. For me nothing before or in place of QUALITY PERFORMANCE LEVEL .

Anyway, good luck with that " good loking " Technics.

regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

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Raul,

over many, many tt's and many, many arm mounting designs it has been clear to me that time and time again the more solidly engineered ones sound better. and the very best have been truely robust and massive. tt's lacking mass pretty much sound anemic to me. and not just mass for the sake of mass; but constrained layered engineered designs that are also lively.

i realize my perspective and experience is different than yours. who knows why?

best regards,

mike

Mike Lavigne said:

Raul,

over many, many tt's and many, many arm mounting designs it has been clear to me that time and time again the more solidly engineered ones sound better. and the very best have been truely robust and massive. tt's lacking mass pretty much sound anemic to me. and not just mass for the sake of mass; but constrained layered engineered designs that are also lively.

i realize my perspective and experience is different than yours. who knows why?

best regards,

mike

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Dear Mike Lavigne: I don't think we are too different or with different audio experiences. Maybe in the naked TT fashion our main difference is that I heard, try and tested the naked version and I understand you did not. So, is very dificult that we can agree or even that we can talk about when you did/do not have this experience in your own system to have at least a reference to comparisons and to create an opinion with true good foundations.

How can I talk or compare or assume nothing on something that I never experienced?, with all respect: makes no sense to me. I even can't say " I respect your opinion " because you really can't have a proved opinion on the whole naked TT subject. IMHO you need to try it and you can do it very easy due that you own this kind of DD TT: just naked it ( not big deal ) and then come back and share your facts and certainly we can talk about.

I can tell you that sometimes thinking and making tests, on different audio subjects, " out of the box/AHEE " could give us very nice " surprises " way beyond any audio theory.


Btw, mep: Dertonarm and I discuss this same subject and the differences comes because he speaks about theory due that he never tested in his system the naked TT version so he don't know what this experience " means ". In the other side I made in deep tests/research on the naked TT version against plinthed ones. I can't understand how you can agree with something you have no any single idea about!!!!, this is out of mi mind.

Please read the Halcro experiences between the naked TT version against the Raven TT. I linked that post that speaks about facts and not only theory or words with no real foundation.

Btw, al over the world: Asia ( Japan. Malasya, Singapur,.. ), Australia, New zeland, Europe ( England, germany, Spain, .. ), America ( Usa, Canada, Mexico,... ) more and more persons are starting with the naked TT version and more and more persons with plinthed ones are changing to the naked version and you know what?: till today no single plinthed one that goes naked returned to plinthed.
These facts IMHO speaks more than thousands words from you, M.Lavigne, me or any one else on the success of the naked TT fashion: don't you think/agree?

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Raul,

i have heard many, many dozens of 'naked' tt's over the years. various designs with minimal or no plinth. and then i've heard many other tt's with substaintial plinths. both approaches have their characteristics. and i formed my opinions.

no; i've not specifically removed the outer shell of an SP-10 and listened to it.....and don't plan on doing that. so i'll respect your take on that.

over the last few years i've been involved with tonearm development with a local friend; and seen the effect of plinth design and tonearm mounting choices on a state-of-the-art tonearm. i'm not confused on cause and effect.

best regards,

Mike

Dear Mike Lavigne: +++++ " robust and massive. tt's lacking mass pretty much sound anemic to me. " +++++

that's IMHO is only one way to think but certainly not the only way. There are other very good and proved alternatives.

As all in audio always exist alternatives: tubes/SS technology, CD/LP technology, DD/BD TTs, pivoted/linear tracking tonearms, MC/MM phono cartridges and now plinthed and non-plinthed/naked TTs versions.

All these alternatives has its own trade-offs and you choosed or will choose the ones that gives you the best trade-offs to improve quality performance level in favor of music sound reproduction in your home audio system.

Btw, mep: the stand alone tonearm board fashion was taken by many TT manufacturers as: Kuzma, Red Point, Galibier, etc, so is something that is already tested and proved other than we on the naked TT project.

Of course that I know that if all this subject was coming or posted by a different person that me that's for sure there will be not this high reticent you people have. But like it or not the naked project is growing up and helping a lot of audiophiles in the same way that the MM/MI alternative is helping a lot of people ( as the DD TT too. ) and I'm sure that in the near future my proposal that the best " electrical line system power conditiones is NO CONDITIONER " will have success. Everything ( sooner or latter. ) IMHO falls by its own weight.

I think that an open mind attitude could help each one of us. This kind of mental attitude can't damage any one in any way. It does not matters if the " subject " is coming or supported by me.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.



Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Mike Lavigne said:

Raul,

i have heard many, many dozens of 'naked' tt's over the years. various designs with minimal or no plinth. and then i've heard many other tt's with substaintial plinths. both approaches have their characteristics. and i formed my opinions.

no; i've not specifically removed the outer shell of an SP-10 and listened to it.....and don't plan on doing that. so i'll respect your take on that.

over the last few years i've been involved with tonearm development with a local friend; and seen the effect of plinth design and tonearm mounting choices on a state-of-the-art tonearm. i'm not confused on cause and effect.

best regards,

Mike

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Dear Mike Lavigne: Good to hear that from you. So, the only experience that you decided not to have is the SP-10 naked version. I respect that.

Btw, I have almost the same experiences you posted and even that I'm not confused on cause and effect either this DD TT naked project is a learning one that shows that many of what we already learned through experiences as the ones you posted has land to improve and this fact alone is what could help for we could grow-up in the TT whole subject.

That you decided not to try is fine with me and you have good reason for not do it. In my case as in several other persons we have good reasons too for live that naked TT experiences. That's all, I came here only to share those naked TT experiences.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.