Berkeley vs. DCS Debussy vs. etc.

amirm · Feb 20, 2011

Thanks Greg. My question was the interconnect between the Mac and the DACs. Did they use Toslink? If so, I am only using the Berkeley with an async USB to S/PDIF converter and not with Toslink. In my careful testing, the adapter makes a significant difference in fidelity (on two Mark Levinson DACs I tested). So to the extent the dCS was running in async mode and Berkeley was not, I am not surprised to hear a preference in favor of dCS. I have only configured the Berkeley and tested it that way, not with direct connect.

The adapter I use is only $500 so it doesn't add much to the cost of the Berkeley (Audiophilleo). I have tested this little box even with low-end DACs and I continue to be amazed at the difference it makes. The engineer in me can't explain it

. But an asynch USB with good isolation is a required component in my book when connecting to a PC.

So if you have not listened to this combo, give it a try. If not, plan to be in Seattle area and I will show it to you

.

Morbius · Feb 20, 2011

amirm said:
Thanks Greg. My question was the interconnect between the Mac and the DACs. Did they use Toslink?

amirm,

I don't know exactly how the Berkeley was connected to the server, only that it was a form of S/PDIF.
The dCS Debussy was connected to the server via USB using the Debussy's async USB capability.

Greg

amirm · Feb 20, 2011

Would be great to get them side by side using USB and see which one sings better

.

garylkoh · Feb 22, 2011

Bruce B said:
Glad you're having a great time with the Berkeley. I didn't have much luck with it. I tested it against the Playback, DAD AX24, PM2, MH/Sonic 305 and dCS 955. I believe both Winston and Mike tried it also. Just didn't do it for me.

IMHO the Berkeley folks are waayyyy too optimistic that it will sound great a couple hours out of the box, and fabulous after 24hours burn-in. It didn't do it for me until it had 4 days of continuous burning-in. Music during office hours, and the IsoTek burn-in disc overnight. I was quite concerned because I had borrowed one to use at CES, and they shipped it to me less than a week before I had to ship it out for CES. Even at CES, after being in the box for 2 weeks, it sounded lean, lifeless and un-dynamic until we had put another 3 days continuous time on it. However, when well warmed up, it's probably one of the best DACs I've heard in my own room.....

fas42 · Feb 22, 2011

I have tested this little box even with low-end DACs and I continue to be amazed at the difference it makes.

Not to me. As I noted in another post, the digital signal being fed to a D/A at some point has to to be treated as an analogue signal, and because much of the processing circuitry in DAC's is often not as well sorted out as it can be, the cleaner the signals going into the DAC casework, the better. I note on the Audiophilleo website they make a fetish of reducing the phase noise, which will certainly help the input side of the DAC: it doesn't have to work as hard, getting rid of any muck still there ...

Frank

fas42 · Feb 22, 2011

However, when well warmed up, it's probably one of the best DACs I've heard in my own room.....

Gary, I wonder if you have experimented with different types of signal input for conditioning DAC's? I note that many D/A converters incorporate capacitor actions, and personally I find driving capacitors hard with the highest frequency signals is a good way of getting them up to the mark ...

A test signal of maximum level, say, 18kHz continuous is possibly worth trying ...

Frank

ack · Feb 22, 2011

garylkoh said:
IMHO the Berkeley folks are waayyyy too optimistic that it will sound great a couple hours out of the box, and fabulous after 24hours burn-in. It didn't do it for me until it had 4 days of continuous burning-in. Music during office hours, and the IsoTek burn-in disc overnight. I was quite concerned because I had borrowed one to use at CES, and they shipped it to me less than a week before I had to ship it out for CES. Even at CES, after being in the box for 2 weeks, it sounded lean, lifeless and un-dynamic until we had put another 3 days continuous time on it. However, when well warmed up, it's probably one of the best DACs I've heard in my own room.....

Yes, it apparently takes a long time to reach the intended idle currents; I wonder why...

microstrip · Feb 22, 2011

garylkoh said:
(...) Even at CES, after being in the box for 2 weeks, it sounded lean, lifeless and un-dynamic until we had put another 3 days continuous time on it. However, when well warmed up, it's probably one of the best DACs I've heard in my own room.....

Gary,
As far as I know the Berkeley alpha DAC only has SPDIF inputs. What is the best way to use it with an USB PC running Windows XP professional?

amirm · Feb 22, 2011

microstrip said:
Gary,
As far as I know the Berkeley alpha DAC only has SPDIF inputs. What is the best way to use it with an USB PC running Windows XP professional?

Not Gary but I answered the same question earlier in the thread

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...Debussy-vs.-etc.&p=39106&viewfull=1#post39106

amirm · Feb 22, 2011

garylkoh said:
IMHO the Berkeley folks are waayyyy too optimistic that it will sound great a couple hours out of the box, and fabulous after 24hours burn-in. It didn't do it for me until it had 4 days of continuous burning-in. Music during office hours, and the IsoTek burn-in disc overnight. I was quite concerned because I had borrowed one to use at CES, and they shipped it to me less than a week before I had to ship it out for CES. Even at CES, after being in the box for 2 weeks, it sounded lean, lifeless and un-dynamic until we had put another 3 days continuous time on it. However, when well warmed up, it's probably one of the best DACs I've heard in my own room.....

Berkeley tunes the DAC after running for a week. I wonder then whether its performance is tied to that temperature range and level of stabilization. Ours is always powered on and by the time I got to it, someone else had played with it for a few weeks. So I don't have any experience with it cold and out of the box.

ack · Feb 22, 2011

The Alpha also has an AES/EBU input which is the preferred connection due to its high bandwidth.

And a little interesting factoid, according to some reputable sources a while ago, is that one of the reasons the Alpha was not available in Europe for some time is because they couldn't use the same [presumably superior] solder they use in the US, due to some regulations... and replacements didn't sound the same - don't know what happened in the end, but it appears the attention to detail is fanatical.

Finally, it's been posted before that they are coming up with their own USB->AES/EBU converter "soon"

amirm · Feb 22, 2011

ack said:
And a little interesting factoid, according to some reputable sources a while ago, is that one of the reasons the Alpha was not available in Europe for some time is because they couldn't use the same [presumably superior] solder they use in the US, due to some regulations... and replacements didn't sound the same - don't know what happened in the end, but it appears the attention to detail is fanatical.

You can add me to those reputable sources

. I heard the above when I spoke to Michael Ritter last year as they were trying to solve it. The RoHS regulation in EU essentially requires lead-free solder and they sensed a definite drop in performance using substitute solder.

Finally, it's been posted before that they are coming up with their own USB->AES/EBU converter "soon"

No comment

.

garylkoh · Feb 23, 2011

microstrip said:
Gary,
As far as I know the Berkeley alpha DAC only has SPDIF inputs. What is the best way to use it with an USB PC running Windows XP professional?

I haven't heard the Audiophileo that Amir used. I used the Weiss INT202 or the Minerva to interface firewire with the Alpha DAC. I didn't find a difference in operation or sound with both. I'm waiting for my M2Tech EVO to get here so that I can try USB to S/PDIF.

garylkoh · Feb 23, 2011

fas42 said:
Gary, I wonder if you have experimented with different types of signal input for conditioning DAC's? I note that many D/A converters incorporate capacitor actions, and personally I find driving capacitors hard with the highest frequency signals is a good way of getting them up to the mark ...

A test signal of maximum level, say, 18kHz continuous is possibly worth trying ...

Frank

I don't know if it will make a difference, but I don't condition anything with a single frequency or type of signal because conceptually, it might condition the gear for that frequency. I don't know if this is snake-oil, but I find some conditioning discs better than others. The one I currently like is the IsoTek disc. Esoteric has an OEM version that is supposedly better for DACs and players. My current conditioning signal is the IsoTek disc upsampled via SoX to 176.4kHz.

garylkoh · Feb 23, 2011

ack said:
The Alpha also has an AES/EBU input which is the preferred connection due to its high bandwidth.

You're probably correct. When I did my A/D/A loop test, I found that with coax S/PDIF, the best sound I got was at 24/96. Since the phono stage I used did not have AES/EBU output, I couldn't try the loop at the higher resolution.

Morbius · Feb 27, 2011

ack said:
b) their filter must be software-based and running on that SHARC processor, and as such potentially better than "apodising" or whatever - this may also apply to the dCS as well. I personally perceive the Alpha as an extremely sophisticated device.

ack,

The Meridian apodising filter is doing something that the Alpha filter is not even attempting. The Meridian
apodising filter has a null at the frequency of the anti-alias filter used in the ADC, the analog to digital conversion. as part of the recording process.
The apodising filter is correcting the distortions introduced by the ADC filter. The Alpha DAC and their HDCD
processing, as with most DACs, is not even attempting to address or correct distortions introduced by the ADC.

From the portion of the HDCD patent that you quote, it sounds like HDCD encoded material is
recorded with a filter that doesn't introduce pre-ringing. Hence, there is no need for the
correction of the apodising filter on material that was originally encoded as per HDCD

Greg

ack · Feb 27, 2011

I don't think I agree with this.

mep · Feb 27, 2011

amirm said:
You can add me to those reputable sources . I heard the above when I spoke to Michael Ritter last year as they were trying to solve it. The RoHS regulation in EU essentially requires lead-free solder and they sensed a definite drop in performance using substitute solder.

We are going to the RoHS lead-free solder standard too right here in the U.S. as it is the politically correct/environmentally correct thing to do. Too bad lead free solder will grow tin whiskers and short out your electronics over time. There was a reason why we went to the mixture of lead/tin that we used in our solder-it works. Certain military programs are exempt from having to use the lead free solder because some people realize it's better to have something you can depend on than something you know won't work long term. I don't know a single electrical engineer who thinks lead free solder is a good idea.

microstrip · Feb 27, 2011

amirm said:
You can add me to those reputable sources . I heard the above when I spoke to Michael Ritter last year as they were trying to solve it. The RoHS regulation in EU essentially requires lead-free solder and they sensed a definite drop in performance using substitute solder.

No comment .

Sometime ago I was very interested by the Alpha DAC - the only way of getting it in Europe would be a personal import from Switzerland that is not part of EC. However, as it does not carry a EC approbation seal bringing it out and in the country again if warranty service is needed would be almost impossible and I gave up the idea of getting it.

caesar · Feb 27, 2011

I heard the Berkley, and although a great value, I don't think it's on the same level as the elite cd players. The Meridian 808.2 had a lot more depth and space around the instruments, while the Berkley sounded flatter in comparison.

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