Berkeley vs. DCS Debussy vs. etc.

rblnr

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Anybody heard the Berkeley vs. the Debussy vs. others in this rough price category?

Also, does anyone know details of the main filter in the Berkeley? Is it an apodizing/minimum phase like the Ayre and Meridian? Can't find much info on it.
 

amirm

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We have the Berkeley on display. I have spoken with Michael Ritter about the filter design. He won't disclose it other than if you play HDCD material, it has the proper inverse filter to handle that. I plan to co-write an article on the DAC and hope to get more detail then but I suspect it won't answer this question.

The front panel controls a set of filters but they recommend not using any other than the standard 1.16 and 1.24. The former is for playing CD and detects HDCD in that fromat. The latter is for 24-bit playback with 24-bit HDCD detection (which means it will NOT detect it in standard CD). Driven by a little async USB to S/PDIF converter, the sound to my ears is sublime.

I have chatted with dCS folks but I am not yet sure if we want to carry their product. Not because they are not good but because I just don't know if I can demonstrate additional quality. The Berkeley is less than half the price at $5K. The Debussy is $11K. My USB converter is only $500 (I do plan to test step up products from this one). So even if it is better, will there anyone pay for that difference?

I think it comes down to the custom DAC design that dCS has versus a week of burn in and hand tuning that Berkeley does on every box before it goes out. And the value of on-board HDCD detection.

Michael tells me that they have won shoot outs against dCS as long as the source is right which up to now has been the Lynx PCI audio card. He now believes (and I concur) that the best sound will come from async USB paired with it (with proper interconnect). Take the claim of winning over dCS as pretty biased though :).
 

rblnr

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Thanks for the info Amir. I'm soon to be DAC-less, so am looking. Have been using an Ayre QB-9 and Bel Canto 3.5vb (very good and a possible keeper) for the time being. As we all know, it's very difficult to compare things directly these days. Am hoping to try out both (Berk/DCS) in my system, we'll see.

I'll be using a Squeezebox Touch in front of whatever DAC, and will connect via S/PDIF, a S/PDIF --> USB converter (which do you use?), or the hack to make the SB USB-out, whatever makes most sense with what I end up with.

Yeah, I get the sense the Berkeley folks are mum about the filter. You used to work with some of them, no? I'm sure Michael is a fantastic guy, but I'll bet the DCS guys are great too and would come to a different conclusion in a shootout :)
 

amirm

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I'll be using a Squeezebox Touch in front of whatever DAC, and will connect via S/PDIF, a S/PDIF --> USB converter (which do you use?), or the hack to make the SB USB-out, whatever makes most sense with what I end up with.
I use the Audiophillio: http://www.audiophilleo.com/



There is also a plain one without any of the bling which should sound the same if not a bit better due to lack of interference from the display and such.

Yeah, I get the sense the Berkeley folks are mum about the filter. You used to work with some of them, no? I'm sure Michael is a fantastic guy, but I'll bet the DCS guys are great too and would come to a different conclusion in a shootout :)
Yes, I know them well because I led the acquisition of Pacific Microsonics into my group at Microsoft. They had built software for correcting distortion in computer speakers. As a result, I had the pleasure and privilege of having people like Keith Johnson working with us for 1+ year. One thing that was constant and is now, is that these people a) really understand what happens when you mix digital and analog in the same box and b) use their ears and engineering to build boxes (and hence the hand tuning).
 

rblnr

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One thing that was constant and is now, is that these people a) really understand what happens when you mix digital and analog in the same box and b) use their ears and engineering to build boxes (and hence the hand tuning).

They, DCS, and only a few others seem to be on the cutting edge of digital and doing something unique with their hardware/software implementations.
 

amirm

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Agreed.

BTW, I just took another look at the dCS spec and was surprised that its USB input won't go above 96 Khz. Seeing how HRx downloads are at 176Khz, that is a bummer. The little audiophillio goes up to 192 Khz. I don't know what is so hard about getting such detail right in high-end products. At this price level, you don't want functionality compromises.

Even more odd is that the S/PDIF input can't go any higher either! Now that is very surprising. They take AES/EBU at higher sample rate but that rules out a lot of USB converters (including the Audiophilliio above) as they only have non-balanced S/PDIF outputs.

On the positive front, I like the fact that it can control the media player using its own remote.
 

rblnr

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Thx. I think the writer may have moved to the Debussy from the BADA.
 

Scott Borduin

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I've used the AlphaDAC as my DAC and preamp for about 2 years now. I've not heard all of the competitive alternatives, but I've been very happy with the AlphaDAC. When I first put it into my system, I was startled at the apparent improvement over my Meridian 861V4, which was widely considered to be at or near SOTA in the mid 00s. I had no way to directly A/B them, but my expectation bias was to hear essentially no difference. Particularly on 44.1 material, the Berkeley seemed to offer a significantly larger soundstage, and smoother, less mechanical highs.

As to whether the filter is minimum phase, who knows. But it's worth knowing that "minimum phase" is a very generic category of filter, and there doesn't appear to be consensus on what parameters actually are best. For instance, the Ayre and Meridian filter implementations are very, very different, even though both were supposedly tuned based on extensive listening sessions. And some respected manufacturers, like MSB, don't necessarily buy into minimum phase at all. So you're still down to actually having to audition these things yourself, in your own system, as much as you can. SOS :)
 

rblnr

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The USB has been upgraded: http://www.stereophile.com/content/dcs-debussy-dac-usb-upgrade.

That's a real head-scratcher on a 96Khz ceiling on S/PDIF though.


I was startled at the apparent improvement over my Meridian 861V4, which was widely considered to be at or near SOTA in the mid 00s.

I've owned Meridian and know their sound well. That's interesting to hear about the Berkeley.
 

Bruce B

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Glad you're having a great time with the Berkeley. I didn't have much luck with it. I tested it against the Playback, DAD AX24, PM2, MH/Sonic 305 and dCS 955. I believe both Winston and Mike tried it also. Just didn't do it for me.
 

Bruce B

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Good find. There are a couple of comments regarding dCS in there too.

Yeah, Chris is a fanboy of all things Berkeley, PM2, Marutani Consulting, Magico.... the whole bay area group.
 

ack

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We have the Berkeley on display. I have spoken with Michael Ritter about the filter design. He won't disclose it other than if you play HDCD material, it has the proper inverse filter to handle that.

The following is cut directly from the HDCD patent, and I may have posted it before:

An important advantage is that the "brick wall" low-pass filter required to prevent Nyquist--Alias errors can be implemented as a digital filter, which has highly reproducible characteristics free from phase distortions. The characteristics of this filter can be chosen dynamically based upon an analysis of the high resolution signal to minimize distortion. Hence major filter and analog to digital encode system problems such as pre-echo, transient ringing, group delay anomalies, missing code errors, alias distortion and beats are greatly reduced or eliminated.

While I don't know either the specifics of their filters, it's clear to me that: a) with HDCD material, the original question is irrelevant; b) their filter must be software-based and running on that SHARC processor, and as such potentially better than "apodising" or whatever - this may also apply to the dCS as well. I personally perceive the Alpha as an extremely sophisticated device.
 

amirm

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Yeah, Chris is a fanboy of all things Berkeley, PM2, Marutani Consulting, Magico.... the whole bay area group.
When I said there were comments, I meant that it is from other people in that thread. The guy's alias is: StephanLJ

"Thank you for the fabulous review. You are 100 % on time and target. dCS I had, I like the alpha Dac better ... and your site anyway. "

But good to know about Chris' preference for all things local. I personally put no value on such things.
 

Morbius

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May 29, 2010
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Agreed.

BTW, I just took another look at the dCS spec and was surprised that its USB input won't go above 96 Khz. Seeing how HRx downloads are at 176Khz, that is a bummer.

amirm,

Starting in April 2011, dCS Debussy USB input will do 192 kHz/24 and existing units can be upgraded:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/dcs-debussy-dac-usb-upgrade

The Debussy DAC can already do 192 kHz. I think dCS adhered to the original USB spec which promulgated a 92 kHz limit.

I auditioned both the Berkeley and the Debussy at Music Lovers and felt the Debussy to be better.
I believe it is worth the price differential. It's not 2X better, but when do we get a linear price vs. performance curve.

Greg
 

amirm

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As per the dCS spec sheet:

http://www.dcsltd.co.uk/product/debussy-dac#tab_spec

Input of 192 kHz is available on Dual-AES and Dual-S/PDIF. For the latter you have to use one RCA input and one BNC input

Greg
I noted that earlier but what devices do you have as sources which output dual-S/PDIF for > 96 KHz? I have none. For a consumer product, I am not seeing the wisdom of not having single wire support for such speeds, regardless of any merit for lower jitter at higher speeds.
 

Morbius

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Thanks Greg. Bob noted the upgrade earlier :).

How were they driving the two DACs at Music Lovers?

amirm,

They sourced their digital music with their own "home-built" music server, which they offer as
product, running iTunes and Amarra feeding the DACs.

The DACs output analog to Spectral pre- and power amplifiers, and driving Wilson Audio Sasha speakers.

Greg
 

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