Effects of solid billet manufacturing in amplifiers

KeithR

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This seems to be the product du jour---carve your amp out of a block of aluminum, which really escalates product manufacturing costs. We even now see D'agostino carving them out of copper and pricing his new gems at 42k a pair.

What are the benefits of said structure---compared to a normal casing with heat sinks. Has anyone seen any measurement benefits of the solid structure?

I'm just curious really---I agree it looks really awesome, but Ayre and Jeff Rowlands new stereo amps cost 15k now because of this structure. that is a lot of coin for a STEREO amp. There are a lot of more typical monoblocks that cost the same as these new solid billet amps.

KeithR
 
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mep

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Keith-I don't know if anyone will ever publish a set of graphs that show vibrational modes being reduced or that EMI/RFI radiation has been suppressed. You either like their looks or not, and you can either afford them or not. I think you would admit that your $12K McIntosh amps have lots of bling that do nothing to add to the sound quality and if said bling was removed in order to optimize the performance to cost ratio, your $12k amps would sell for a cheaper price. But people enjoy their bling and are willing to pay for it.
 

JackD201

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As in most anything I figure it would depend more on the specific design and implementation. All products mentioned, including the laptop I'm typing this on, really do look and feel good though.
 

KeithR

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Keith-I don't know if anyone will ever publish a set of graphs that show vibrational modes being reduced or that EMI/RFI radiation has been suppressed. You either like their looks or not, and you can either afford them or not. I think you would admit that your $12K McIntosh amps have lots of bling that do nothing to add to the sound quality and if said bling was removed in order to optimize the performance to cost ratio, your $12k amps would sell for a cheaper price. But people enjoy their bling and are willing to pay for it.

I hear you mep---i'm not saying McIntosh charges a premium for their look (they do indeed) and should have phrased my post differently (i just edited my OP). Just most high end stereo amps are in the 7-8k range (Pass, Krell, etc)---but because of this new design structure, they are double the price due to the higher cost of manufacturing. I'm wondering how sonically better this structure is or if it's worth it.

I love the look of these things, that's not the issue!
 

Bruce B

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I actually asked this question of Herve' of Dartzeel fame. I asked him what percentage of the cost of the monoblocs is due to aesthetics. Seems most manufacturers in the audiophile world put an awful lot of effort and cost into the bling. Now if they just put that money back into the sound of the amps and gave me a plain wrapper, we would have a whole new breed of pro equipment.
You can see this in the Weiss DAC. The audiophile DAC is $2k more just to make it look nice!
 

Orb

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I actually asked this question of Herve' of Dartzeel fame. I asked him what percentage of the cost of the monoblocs is due to aesthetics. Seems most manufacturers in the audiophile world put an awful lot of effort and cost into the bling. Now if they just put that money back into the sound of the amps and gave me a plain wrapper, we would have a whole new breed of pro equipment.
You can see this in the Weiss DAC. The audiophile DAC is $2k more just to make it look nice!

Bruce what is the support like with a business type contract with manufacturers of audio gear?
I am asking because I know consumer rights are better protected when it comes to returning equipment and curious if support on audio gear purchased on a pro/business type T&C is possibly another reason for extra cost.
This is true for Europe anyway but never seen manufacturer support discussed relating to pro audio and various audio gear of the type that are also used by consumers; here we have as you mention Weiss, and also others such as Chord Electronics/Pass Labs/Bryston/and then speakers.

I know I can purchase Chord Electronics pro gear much cheaper than the consumer version, main difference is the fan in the pro and possibly the T&C/dealer price - they both are exactly same aluminium casing.

Cheers
Orb
 

Bruce B

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Bruce what is the support like with a business type contract with manufacturers of audio gear?Orb

It is much different on the Pro side, even using audiophile equipment. Because the professional side is such a tight-knit group, the manufacturers bend over backwards to make things work and even come to your business to make sure everything is up to snuff. I have a few pieces of gear that have a lifetime warranty. I have audiophile equipment here as well that I'm sure if something goes wrong, I would be treated differently that average Joe off the street.
I wanted a different EQ slope in one of my pieces and the manufacturer did it with no cost. The same with a compressor. I wanted faster attack/slower release times.... not a problem. Try that with an audiophile manufacturer. (Pass labs and a few others excluded).
 

JackD201

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Please forgive the ignorance, is T&C Terms and Conditions and if so, in what are a few ways they differ? Things like length of warranty?
 

mep

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Keith-Once upon a time I owned a Pass Labs X-250 power amp. Depending on your point of view, that faceplate is really cool or it is gaudy as hell. One thing is for certain, it added a tremendous cost to the amp without doing a damn thing for the sonics. As the crazy prices climb, the bling usually follows. I would trade more performance at a cheaper price than less performance and more bling any day of the week. I like the looks of my Jadis Defy 7 MKII way more than the Pass Labs X-250 and I love the sound even more.
 

Orb

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Please forgive the ignorance, is T&C Terms and Conditions and if so, in what are a few ways they differ? Things like length of warranty?

I know in the UK the consumer has greater protection in terms of wanting to return a product within the 1st month (maybe 14 days not sure) and the seller has to take it back - maybe this is a consumer protection only valid in UK and maybe Europe I guess.
On a standard business Terms and Conditions you can be pretty well shafted, I have noted this as well when I was involved in several large bidding processes.

Bruce, thanks for the response.
Was why I mentioned some of the pro businesses that also are audiophile ones :)
I find their support pretty darn good and used them in the past myself as a consumer customer where they could do some bespoke engineering changes or tricky problem.
But it sounds like you never run foul of hassle returning a product, this may be a good sign that the audio business is more fair than some other sectors (on the pro side or that type of company) :)

Try buying a business Terms and Conditions Dell and then return it lol, its a pig trust me.
And noticed this behaviour even on some bidding processes when looking at the fine print or asking difficult questions relating to support-maintenance.

Thanks
Orb
 

Orb

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Keith-Once upon a time I owned a Pass Labs X-250 power amp. Depending on your point of view, that faceplate is really cool or it is gaudy as hell. One thing is for certain, it added a tremendous cost to the amp without doing a damn thing for the sonics. As the crazy prices climb, the bling usually follows. I would trade more performance at a cheaper price than less performance and more bling any day of the week. I like the looks of my Jadis Defy 7 MKII way more than the Pass Labs X-250 and I love the sound even more.

Maybe Bruce can comment if Pass Labs equipment is cheaper for their pro business side, it is interesting Chord Electronics pro is cheaper than their consumer with exactly same amount of aluminium billet (used to be anyway).

Cheers
Orb
 

naturephoto1

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Keith-Once upon a time I owned a Pass Labs X-250 power amp. Depending on your point of view, that faceplate is really cool or it is gaudy as hell. One thing is for certain, it added a tremendous cost to the amp without doing a damn thing for the sonics. As the crazy prices climb, the bling usually follows. I would trade more performance at a cheaper price than less performance and more bling any day of the week. I like the looks of my Jadis Defy 7 MKII way more than the Pass Labs X-250 and I love the sound even more.

Then you have Nelson Pass' amps at the other end of the spectrum in the First Watt Amps (and by comparison in far more limited numbers). I am really extremely happy with my new First Watt M2 power amp. It is a little pedestrian in appearance (though a nice front faceplate). But, since the amp is only 25 watts Class A stereo instead of 250 watts it is not only much simpler in design including only RCA inputs, but substantially less expensive. Also, due to the design though it may have more distortion and since it has no negative feedback it may sound better than its much larger, much more complex, much more expensive cousin.

Rich
 

c1ferrari

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I actually asked this question of Herve' of Dartzeel fame. I asked him what percentage of the cost of the monoblocs is due to aesthetics.

Bruce,

Can you articulate Herve's response?
 

mep

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Then you have Nelson Pass' amps at the other end of the spectrum in the First Watt Amps (and by comparison in far more limited numbers). I am really extremely happy with my new First Watt M2 power amp. It is a little pedestrian in appearance (though a nice front faceplate). But, since the amp is only 25 watts Class A stereo instead of 250 watts it is not only much simpler in design including only RCA inputs, but substantially less expensive. Also, due to the design though it may have more distortion and since it has no negative feedback it may sound better than its much larger, much more complex, much more expensive cousin.

Rich

Rich-I hope your amp sounds way better than the X-250. I hated the sound of it. I'm just glad the guy I sold it to likes it. At the time I bought the X-250, I was upset with my Quicksilver MX-190 amp for numerous reasons. I wanted to try SS and see if I could leave behind everything that goes with owning a tube amp. I couldn't.
 

naturephoto1

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Rich-I hope your amp sounds way better than the X-250. I hated the sound of it. I'm just glad the guy I sold it to likes it. At the time I bought the X-250, I was upset with my Quicksilver MX-190 amp for numerous reasons. I wanted to try SS and see if I could leave behind everything that goes with owning a tube amp. I couldn't.

I know that some people still argue that SS amps that are supposed to have some of the qualities of the Tube Amps are still very different sounding from tubes. Well, the reviews of the amp has been quite good. The argument is that it does not have as much detail as the First Watt J2 or F5, but, it was found to bridge much of the gap between the tube amps with which it was compared. It doesn't have quite as much warmth, but it had a more extended top end along with a more solid bass line and is excellent for the beginning and ending sounds of many instruments. However, with the tweaks that I am using of the Herbies Herbie's Iso-Cup footers with the Lampblack Balls and Hi-end bases along with the replacement of the Power cord with the Analysis Plus Oval 2 Power cords with the oyaide 079 ends I am quite pleased and there has been a dramatic performance improvement in all areas. I have found that it mates well with my modified ARC LS10 and also with my Soundsmith Strain Gauge 410 Phono Preamp. And with the new TimePortal silver RCA IC cables things have really opened up in sound. But, I am still experimenting with OMA New Yorker speakers now with the Herbies Giant Fat Gliders under the speakers, and things keep getting better. But, I am now fine tuning the speaker placement.

Rich
 
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amirm

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This seems to be the product du jour---carve your amp out of a block of aluminum, which really escalates product manufacturing costs. We even now see D'agostino carving them out of copper and pricing his new gems at 42k a pair.
Copper dissipates heat at roughly double the efficiency of aluminum. In return, it costs about 5X more. Clearly if you were after value, you would use aluminum, not copper.

As to Boulder and its block of Aluminum, once more the science tells us that a heat sink cools both by conduction (above factors) and radiation. The latter works far better if the aluminum is (anodized) black. So the fact that they leave it natural, means that they used more material to compensate in order to keep the looks the way they wanted.

What are the benefits of said structure---compared to a normal casing with heat sinks. Has anyone seen any measurement benefits of the solid structure?
Heat conduction is a sum of the bass material plus the fins. So in that sense, the heat sink works better. However, air flow is often more restricted when the fins are much larger and hence, the efficiency may go down rather than up. The complex shape of these blocks requires modelling or experimentation to examine for certain.
 

mep

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I know that some people still argue that SS amps that are supposed to have some of the qualities of the Tube Amps are still very different sounding from tubes. Well, the reviews of the amp has been quite good. The argument is that it does not have as much detail as the First Watt J2 or F2, but, it was found to bridge much of the gap between the tube amps with which it was compared. It doesn't have quite as much warmth, but it had a more extended top end along with a more solid bass line and is excellent for the beginning and ending sounds of many instruments. However, with the tweaks that I am using of the Herbies Herbie's Iso-Cup footers with the Lampblack Balls and Hi-end bases along with the replacement of the Power cord with the Analysis Plus Oval 2 Power cords with the oyaide 079 ends I am quite pleased and there has been a dramatic performance improvement in all areas. I have found that it mates well with my modified ARC LS10 and also with my Soundsmith Strain Gauge 410 Phono Preamp. And with the new TimePortal silver RCA IC cables things have really opened up in sound. But, I am still experimenting with OMA New Yorker speakers now with the Herbies Giant Fat Gliders under the speakers, and things keep getting better. But, I am now fine tuning the speaker placement.

Rich

Rich-All I can tell you is there was nothing I liked about the sound of the X-250. I wrote a fairly long post on the Tape Project forum awhile back detailing what I heard or rather didn't hear. I think the title was something along the lines of "SS and Zombies."
 

mep

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Copper dissipates heat at roughly double the efficiency of aluminum. In return, it costs about 5X more. Clearly if you were after value, you would use aluminum, not copper.

Amir-This probably helps explain why Dan's new amps are so compact.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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It seemed to me that this thread was in desperate need of visual support:




It is a lovely little thing.

Tim
 

amirm

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Amir-This probably helps explain why Dan's new amps are so compact.
It does indeed. The unit is gorgeous to touch and very small for its size. I wish he would put an object of known size next to his amps so that people can get a sense of scale. Otherwise, we all assume it is a monster of an amp when it comes to size.
 

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