ack's system - end of round 1

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,623
10,818
3,515
USA
Congratulations Ack. I admire your willingness and ability to experiment and improve your system.

Have you considered measuring the effect on that 50 Hz peak of moving your listening seat forward or backward 6"? I know your space is tight, and it may not make a difference, but that is the first thing Jim Smith did when he began setting up my room. He first located the exact spot within my listening area where the bass response below about 300 hz was the smoothest. That became the new location for the listening seat. Everything followed from there.
 

ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
6,774
1,198
580
Boston, MA
The easiest thing to do is move the sound-pressure meter around the room; have done that, and the listening position has the smoothest bass response. I'll kill that peak with some room treatment, eventually.
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,623
10,818
3,515
USA
The easiest thing to do is move the sound-pressure meter around the room; have done that, and the listening position has the smoothest bass response. I'll kill that peak with some room treatment, eventually.

Doesn't the room treatment need to be big to effect a 40-50 Hz band? What product are you thinking about?
 

ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
6,774
1,198
580
Boston, MA
I don't have anything in mind yet, haven't really thought about it much; a potential issue with room treatments is what else do they "treat" other than the intended region, and my region is very narrow. I really need to discuss this ASC and others, by providing a model of my room.

Meantime, I gotta tell you... I've been listening to the Mahler CD at the bottom constantly the last few weeks (a reference for me for the last 25 years), while tweaking, and despite the "lower" bass measurements that I show, I think you'd be surprised by the bass weight and impact when the program calls for it, so perhaps that peak is welcome vis a vis the ear's sensitivities (I am still not talking Q5/Q7-level bass performance, mind you). And just last week I found a presumably mint LP version of the same that I am waiting to get in the mail - it will be interesting to hear the differences of this ca 1987 digital recording.

BTW, still looking for a replacement driver for my 8" woofer... and I am looking forward to the 30SV preamp (still months out), which rendered a slightly livelier midbass and overall tighter bass region.

 

ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
6,774
1,198
580
Boston, MA
It's a confusing and complicated world: SD vs HD

Last June, I said "PS: I will save the discussion on SD vs HD on the 90.1 MIT speaker cables for a later time."; re-reading posts from around then, PeterA has been saying that he prefers the SD setting, finds phase issues with HD, but then liked the audition back in June, and as it turned out, I had hidden the SD/HD setting from the attendees, only to reveal in the end that we were all listening exclusively to HD all along. So again, it's a confusing and complicated world... and apologies that, despite best efforts, the following are still very thick.

So let me go back to what this MIT Articulation Pole technology is all about, and what the differences between SD and HD are, and what this Fractional Articulation Technology (FAT) is all about; the following is a direct quote from MIT as can be found at http://media.theabsolutesound.com/buyers_guides/BG_Cables_2013.pdf

Robert Harley: Give us an overview of the Oracle Technology.
Bruce Brisson: The Oracle technology started with me designing an optimizing network for each of the octaves. We started at A440, because that’s the frequency most musical information surround and we worked on a network for each subsequent octave, up and down, from there. That was the original Oracle technology. We built on that by coming out with what we call HD, for high definition. What that meant was that we extended the Oracle technology to ten octaves and optimized for seven harmonics. The harmonics extend linearly from those octaves. Linearly means any harmonic has to be a whole number no fractions. If there is a fraction involved, and it deviates much, it becomes a spurious overtone. Instruments and voices produce overtones, but we don’t want to produce them in an audio signal-carrying conductor or in any amplifier. That covers the first two evolutions of the Oracle. From there we created Fractional Articulation Technology, which is where our research led us next; to make optimizing networks for the musical information between the octaves. Not extending forward from the octave by something greater than one, but the inter-octave spectra, which we call notes. The distance between one note and another note can be expressed in cents: 100 cents is a half step, 200 cents is a full step. With Fractional Articulation Technology we can optimize the spectra between the octaves.

RH: How specifically does the cable design do this?
BB: By forming what we call poles of articulation. This is simply how much energy a cable or a network stores and releases. Associated with that release of energy is a rise time and a fall time, which is accompanied by a settling time. We install networks in the cables which are formed from inductors and capacitors and resistors. We begin our optimization at A440, and then move out. So first we do the octaves then we do the six harmonics of the fundamental which is your 7th harmonic. Then we go between the octaves and we add networks to form the poles of articulation. But they don’t have the magnitude that an octave would they don’t store as much energy. We make sure that the rise time and fall times are within certain parameters that we have learned, empirically, doing this over 30 years, that the audiophile’s ear responds to.

Takeaways:

  1. Pole of Articulation = optimized energy stored and released at certain frequencies and their harmonics, and the key here is the rise and settling times (what we commonly call 'speed')
  2. HD = ten octaves and optimization for seven harmonics
  3. SD = unknown
  4. FAT = optimization between octaves

Next, regarding each PoA and what this energy stored/release is all about, the patents (e.g. http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5956410.pdf) claim power losses varying by frequency: "[for a cable with total distributed capacitance of 90pF] using the impedance meter it was shown that at a frequency of 80Hz the impedance phase angle was found to be -85.46 degrees, and at a frequency of 431Hz the phase angle was found to be -87.37 degrees". He then mathematically calculates power losses at 80Hz as being 7.92% and at 431Hz 4.41%. MIT basically claim that there is exactly one frequency in any cable where the power transfer is optimal (cable articulates perfectly at that frequency), and everywhere else there are losses (less articulation), small or large: "The parallel capacitance of the cable is predisposed to store a greater magnitude of electrical energy than at other frequencies. Furthermore, the series distributed inductance of the cable is also predisposed to store a greater magnitude of electrical energy at certain frequencies than others."

These claims then lead to those articulation poles and another patent http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6658119.pdf, wherein it is also claimed that the networks are chosen such that Voltage/Current phase angles (aka power transfer) are optimal at the chosen Pole frequencies, to compensate for the cable's natural Voltage/Current phase angle deviation (=power losses) at those frequencies. The end goal, they claim, is to produce a "more uniform audio output". On the other hand, they also do admit that "in other embodiments the network can be designed to emphasize certain frequencies". MIT have a a long and winding white paper on this Power Factor Correction in audio cables, that solves power transfer issues, at http://www.mitcables.com/pdf/Transportable_Power_101.pdf if anyone cares to read it. BTW, Power Factor and PF Correction are not MIT terms, they are AC terms - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor - and PFC is widely used.

So, another takeaway:
  1. Pole of Articulation = attempt to optimize power transfer at that frequency (and per the above, also harmonics)

As if this is not thick and/or confusing enough, here's what MIT also says about the Oracle Matrix HD 90.1 speaker cables (and now 90.2):

By selecting HD and engaging F.A.T., one hears lifelike transients and improved detail within the octaves of complex music.


Where am I going with all this... back to the music and the differences between the SD & HD settings on my speaker cables, of course.

With the advent of the 30SV preamp (about which I will write up some other day) joining the 400RS amps, the differences are quite pronounced to me... Last weekend, I had PeterA and Al M over, right before the Magico S7 demo at Goodwin's. I left the setting at HD, and wanted to see their reactions (we never talked about the cables). It was obvious to me something bothered Peter, and I was hearing it too ever since the 30SV arrived, but didn't say a word: somewhat unnatural treble is how I would describe it; too emphasized at times, perhaps etched; 'glassy midrange' is also a term I have used in past threads that I googled...

For the past few weeks I have experimented switching back and forth between SD and HD, and here are my conclusions: I have been listening to HD before the 30SV because the brain was struggling to hear extra treble detail; at the same time, I was willing to ignore some midrange glassiness; with some material, HD was not offensive, it seemed to help, others it destroyed the treble. MIT's claim of "lifelike transients" and "improved detail" in HD w/ FAT are, in fact, evidence of unnatural edginess, not additional 'speed' (though to their credit, they do claim the setting one will choose will be system dependent). With a very high resolution system like mine at this point, the "HD" setting appears to operate like a contrast switch, which can be pleasing in some cases, but is just not natural. I played strings on digital for Peter and Al, and I could hear even from the sidelines that some violin notes just exaggerated and unnatural (and mind you, my panels measure virtually flat in their entire operating range, as shown in graphs a page or two ago). I repeated the same experiments with analog and the articulation switch on my MA-X phono cable, and turning it up (HD) creates an edgy, unnatural and perhaps tipped up treble experience.

At the S7 demo last weekend, and numerous product demos and private auditions at Goodwin's I have attended, they used the SD setting. Despite the fact 'HD' can be pleasing with certain recordings, it is just not natural, and possibly flat out wrong or not well executed. At this point, 'HD' is history for me. With SD, the entire midrange and treble is just more natural and realistic, period. Apologies to my friends for using them as guinea pigs!
 

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
8,780
4,542
1,213
Greater Boston
HD setting or not, I was impressed by Ack's system which i heard for the first time last weekend.

It has a very fast sound, with lots of high frequency resolution and detail, like you would expect from panels. Yet the quite unique thing about Ack's panel/woofer system is that the sound is fast throughout the entire frequency range, from top to bottom. There seems none of the discontinuity that is said to usually plague Martin Logan designs. Ack has very extensively modified his speakers in an expert manner (the Martin Logan team could learn from him!) such that they provide a seamless continuum of sound. This shows, among others, clearly when piano music is reproduced, when there is a continuum from high to low register. The dynamics of Ack's system are excellent, both macro- and micro-dynamics, which shone through in the rendition of Beethoven's Appassionata piano sonata (Ikuyo Kamiya, 45 rpm LP). Reaching into the lower end of the frequency spectrum, I found timpani exceptionally well portrayed. The transient sound when the mallet hits the membrane is reproduced with exquisite and almost breathtaking detail, and the actual bass impact of the sound is conveyed very well --- even with REL subwoofer off. Also here dynamics and speed excelled, maximizing impact of sound (again, probably in all of this the sound leaves off-the-shelf Martin Logan speakers in the dust). The sound of the system has great immediacy, which also allows for this detailed reaching 'into' the sound of tympani, among others.

A great level of detail was also evident on sounds like xylophone, glockenspiel and other metallic percussion instruments, and in the midrange as well. I was really struck by how, at one point, I seemed to be able to hear individual instruments in an orchestral trombone section (LP of Mahler 2/Ozawa/BSO). Resolution of individual musical strands on this recording was on a high level. The fine texture of the sound of groups of strings was portrayed very well; in particular I was fond of the rendition of string sound in a piece for chamber orchestra on CD. I was consistently engaged by the lively dynamics of the system (I am addicted to dynamics), including in the portrayal of brass sound on a jazz CD.

A highlight for me was the rendition of the acoustic guitars on the LP of the concert with Al Di Meola, John McLaughlin and Paco De Lucia. Once again there was amazing timbral detail, a very fast sound, an immediate perspective of the music, and the dynamic 'snap' was just impressive. I had to give this one a round of applause!

Transparency of sound was great, even though perhaps not up to the highest standard. I believe the room acoustics hold the system back somewhat, which is also felt in some treble hardness. Yet there is also some hardness in the midrange, especially at loud volume, which seems to be due to room overload. I don't mind some hardness of sound because, depending on venue and seating, I often hear it from live unamplified music as well (in fact, I am suspicious of systems that always sound smooth and polite), but here it seemed clear that you could perceive some adverse interactions of sound waves with the rather small listening space. A future move to a bigger space, where also some acoustic treatment may be feasible on the aesthetic level, will certainly benefit the system performance. But perhaps the new SD setting that I have yet to hear improves things already as they are now.

Overall, very well done, Ack!
 

ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
6,774
1,198
580
Boston, MA
Al, I am glad you liked it, and thanks for the thoughtful comments. I really admire your music knowledge. Building a transparent-to-sources system is tough, and next time I can demonstrate what it means to be on the right path with the following two recordings I got over the weekend:



The first one has all the dynamics and treble energy you'd want - staggering sound, in fact. The second one is a dark, melodic rendition, with a very warm string section that gives you an orchestra-front perspective that is really beautiful, very reminiscent of the BSO Hall. I imagine playing the latter in a dark system would sound dead; in my system, I love both of them and for different reasons.
 

Kingsrule

VIP/Donor
Feb 3, 2011
1,440
700
1,430
ack

Which MIT cables were used at the Goodwins demo you are referring to?
 

ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
6,774
1,198
580
Boston, MA
This time it was the $80K Articulation Consoles. Over the years, they have had all sorts of MIT cables with adjustable settings, and every one of them was set at SD; and I have to say, for good reason.
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,623
10,818
3,515
USA
This time it was the $80K Articulation Consoles. Over the years, they have had all sorts of MIT cables with adjustable settings, and every one of them was set at SD; and I have to say, for good reason.

My experience at Goodwins has been different. The MIT networks have not always been set to SD. I went there about three years ago to audition MIT cables specifically because I had heard so many good things about them and I was in the market for new cables. The demo was in the big room with their top of the line cables at that time and Magico Q7 speakers. The speaker cables were set to SHD and the interconnects to HD or visa versa. After some listening, I played around with the settings and heard big differences. The salesman gave me a pair of lesser demo cables to take home and audition. I did not like them, but I did talk to them later about the settings complaining that I thought the higher settings introduced some phase issues. Goodwins agreed but did not elaborate.

Then recently during the S7 audition with Ack, MadFloyd and Al M., again the articulation consoles were not set to SD. This time, all controls were set to the "OFF" position. There is no SD setting on the latest speaker cables with articulation consoles. It looked like there were three variable dials, 'low', 'mid', and 'high' and a fourth dial which said ON or OFF. It was set to OFF. I wonder if the OFF setting bypasses everything in those network boxes and the cables are essentially straight wire (with the extra connectors in and out of the box). In this OFF position, the demo of the S7 did sound very, very good and part of that overall system performance included the MIT cables.

Regardless, ever since that MIT audition several years ago at Goodwins, I have asked them to set the MIT networks to the lowest articulation settings before listening to any of their gear. I ignore the marketing and claims about performance and care only about what they sound like. Sometimes the settings were at SD and sometimes they were set to HD or SHD. In this sense, I agree with you Ack, that the SD or OFF setting sounds best. I told you that also about the settings in your system about a year ago, but you told me you were still switching back and forth to decide which you preferred.

I am curious, now, why you had Al and I sit through three hours listening to your system two weeks ago with the MIT cables set to HD when, as you write, you had already concluded that you preferred the SD setting. I understand you wanting to use us as guinea pigs to test/confirm your own thoughts without our knowledge or biases being introduced, but why not tell us mid way through the session after we had had a chance to express our opinions on the sound? We could then have switched the MIT network settings to SD to hear the difference and to hear the system the way you prefer it to sound. That might have been more enjoyable and informative. The way you ran the demo, I was left thinking that there was excessive HF distortion in your system. And Al did not enjoy sitting in the sweet spot preferring to sit off center because of the high frequency distortion. Your apology is accepted, though I just wish you had let us in on it before the end of the listening session.

Now that I know that you attribute that high frequency distortion to the MIT HD setting, could you explain a bit more about what you think those networks are doing to the signal?

I'm glad that you have settled on the preferred MIT network setting of SD and hope that Al and I can hear the progress, along with your recent experiments with toe-in, the next time we come over to hear your system. I preferred the SD setting a couple of visits ago and would like to now hear your new Spectral gear without being it corrupted by the extra poles of articulation from those networks. I also look forward to hearing those two Reference Recordings you just got, especially the Mozart piano concertos.
 

ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
6,774
1,198
580
Boston, MA
As you said, SD or OFF is the same difference - lowest possible setting. Switching back and forth during a session is not necessarily a good practice, and you have fallen victim of it last time when you liked the hidden HD - bias, basically - and so have I in the past. Long-term listening impressions are more informed. I also wanted to know what Al would think, having heard the same setting you did back in June. As far as what the networks do to the signal, there isn't more I can say than I already did - but "corruption" is not the way I would describe the effect; at the end of the day, it's all in the listening.
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,623
10,818
3,515
USA
As you said, SD or OFF is the same difference - lowest possible setting. Switching back and forth during a session is not necessarily a good practice, and you have fallen victim of it last time when you liked the hidden HD - bias, basically - and so have I in the past. Long-term listening impressions are more informed. I also wanted to know what Al would think, having heard the same setting you did back in June. As far as what the networks do to the signal, there isn't more I can say than I already did - but "corruption" is not the way I would describe the effect; at the end of the day, it's all in the listening.

I don't know that SD and OFF are the same. I agree that they are both the lowest possible setting on a specific cable model, but I still wonder if OFF bypasses the network or not. SD does not bypass the network. These massive articulation networks with all the dials are 'Frankenstiens' as you describe them.

As to falling victim to the hidden HD the last time I heard your system, there were also other changes that you were excited about and wanted me to hear. So I could not then and certainly can not now, attribute the sonic changes to either the new amps, the network setting, the changes to your speakers, all of the shielding you did, etc. If you liked the HD setting at that time for whatever reason, you don't seem to like it now. Opinions change, which is fine. That time, you did not admit to testing me like a guinue pig, LOL. It was fun, nevertheless. And I always enjoy your music.
 

ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
6,774
1,198
580
Boston, MA
I have no reason to believe that OFF means straight-wire - $80K for straight wire? Especially when the name on the box is "Articulation" Console??? Really don't think so. But yes, Frankencables is how I would describe all of these monsters, but I have also said that I do like these Consoles (in the OFF position), unlike that MAX-SHD thing before it (no experience with MA-X2, or whatever its name was).
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,623
10,818
3,515
USA
I have no reason to believe that OFF means straight-wire - $80K for straight wire? Especially when the name on the box is "Articulation" Console??? Really don't think so. But yes, Frankencables is how I would describe all of these monsters, but I have also said that I do like these Consoles (in the OFF position), unlike that MAX-SHD thing before it (no experience with MA-X2, or whatever its name was).

I would not be so sure. Why have an ON/OFF switch if the network is always engaged or never bypassed? The question I then have is how many poles of articulation are in effect when the box is turned to OFF? The various MIT cables have different poles of articulation in the SD setting. Some are 60, some 90 or whatever. So, when this Maxi box is turned off, what does that really mean? I would hope that OFF bypasses the network, but I have not read any MIT literature which explains it. I'm also curious about what Spectral thinks.

Since this is your system thread and Spectral is central to the accuracy that you are trying to achieve, does Spectral still recommend MIT cables? I think they used to be required. What does Keith Johnson think about the different poles of articulation and the variable controls on the latest networks? If customers like the basic cable better without the added poles, why is MIT doing this? They definitely effect the signal in some way and Spectral is all about pure, clean, fast, neutral amplification of the signal without adding anything to it. Do you think you will be upgrading the MIT cables now that the Spectral gear has improved so dramatically, or is it not necessary?
 

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
8,780
4,542
1,213
Greater Boston
I would not be so sure. Why have an ON/OFF switch if the network is always engaged or never bypassed? The question I then have is how many poles of articulation are in effect when the box is turned to OFF? The various MIT cables have different poles of articulation in the SD setting. Some are 60, some 90 or whatever. So, when this Maxi box is turned off, what does that really mean? I would hope that OFF bypasses the network, but I have not read any MIT literature which explains it.

I would also assume that OFF means OFF. What else would it mean?
 

ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
6,774
1,198
580
Boston, MA
I would not be so sure. Why have an ON/OFF switch if the network is always engaged or never bypassed? The question I then have is how many poles of articulation are in effect when the box is turned to OFF? The various MIT cables have different poles of articulation in the SD setting. Some are 60, some 90 or whatever. So, when this Maxi box is turned off, what does that really mean? I would hope that OFF bypasses the network, but I have not read any MIT literature which explains it. I'm also curious about what Spectral thinks.

MIT claims over 200 articulation poles for this cable. I am also thinking that, coming from a $50K cable (the MA-X2) with SD and other goodies, it would be illogical for an $80K cable to be just straight wire in the OFF positions - why would I, the consumer, buy something like that. But, I can't prove any of that, because there is no web page on this cable yet in their site.

Since this is your system thread and Spectral is central to the accuracy that you are trying to achieve, does Spectral still recommend MIT cables? I think they used to be required. What does Keith Johnson think about the different poles of articulation and the variable controls on the latest networks? If customers like the basic cable better without the added poles, why is MIT doing this? They definitely effect the signal in some way and Spectral is all about pure, clean, fast, neutral amplification of the signal without adding anything to it. Do you think you will be upgrading the MIT cables now that the Spectral gear has improved so dramatically, or is it not necessary?

Spectral do not recommend MIT cables, they require MIT cables for their amps, they always did. As such, they require something more than just straight wire, so that may be another way to think of the OFF position - would Goodwin's demonstrate a Spectral set-up with just straight wire? And no, I won't be upgrading any cables, cost alone is insulting, if not stupid.
 

DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2010
6,129
181
458
La Jolla, Calif USA
Spectral do not recommend MIT cables, they require MIT cables for their amps, they always did. As such, they require something more than just straight wire, so that may be another way to think of the OFF position - would Goodwin's demonstrate a Spectral set-up with just straight wire? And no, I won't be upgrading any cables, cost alone is insulting, if not stupid.

That alone would push me away form considering Spectral gear. Why an amp manufacturer 'requires' the consumer to only use one brand of cables for their gear is IMHO a little outrageous. To lock the consumer into just using one brand of cabling is not what I would call 'user friendly'.
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,623
10,818
3,515
USA
Well, it seems that both the dealer and the customers prefer the lowest number of articulation poles when demonstrating Spectral gear. So, I wonder again, what is MIT trying to accomplish with increased numbers of articulation poles? And if 200 sounds bad, and 120 don't sound as good as 90, but 90 sounds better than zero, there must be some sweet spot or best number preferred by most users. Spectral gear keeps improving, and dramatically so with this last generation, so perhaps their designs seem to be at odds with what MIT is trying to do with their latest cables. Seems strange to me as these companies would seem to be used together in so many systems.

It is all in the listening as you write, but these two brands are also all about measurements, specs and patents and pushing technology. Perhaps the articulation poles were developed with more of an eye toward technology than toward actual listening tests.

Price, indeed, is rather outrageous, but there are straight wire brands that are also ultra expensive like Tara Labs and others.

Sorry for hijacking your system thread. Perhaps this discussion should be moved over to the MIT or Spectral forums.
 

ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
6,774
1,198
580
Boston, MA
Davey, System approach, nothing wrong. FM Acoustics does the same. The way I see the on/off switch is affecting the additional circuitry as in their other cables.
 

ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
6,774
1,198
580
Boston, MA
BTW, MIT makes tuned cables for Constellation as well, marked 'C' in their product names; again, nothing wrong with system-design approach
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing