ack's system - end of round 1

microstrip

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The question for micro is: what do you consider a "decent" power cord

Officially mains has the ability to supply current at an well determine sinusoidal voltage - 50Hz in Europe or 60 Hz in US. A "decent" power cable will differentially show minimal voltage difference between its extremities at this frequency. All else is selectively removing something outside this frequency - and we can pay a lot for such selection;).

And we should not expect science to help us in these matters. Patents are not science - in fact scientific theories can not be patented. They only protect inventions, excluding others from using or selling them. One connection between patents and science is that we can't get a patent in something that goes against acknowledged science - no one will be able to get a patent on a motor that does not need any form of energy.
 

microstrip

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Fransisco, how would you describe a power cord that makes the spatial information of different recordings sound more similar than different? How would you describe a power cord that emphasises certain frequencies over others and strays from neutrality? I have heard cords that hype high frequencies and or low frequencies and refer to those cords as "adding" something. You must describe that effect differently.

If one hears some cords as being noisier than others, can we assume that the quieter ones are removing noise more effectively than the noisier cords? How do we be certain that the noisier cords are not somehow adding noise through their materials, design or connectors?

I have auditioned products, both cords and power devices, listening primarily for lower noise. I later found that along with the lower noise, there were other characteristics to the sound which were detrimental to sound quality. Some might simply say to my preference. Regardless, I did not like them, even though they did subjectively "lower noise".

We went through this several times - there is no subjective neutrality in this hobby, reality is too complex to allow such definition. So I am only addressing cables electrically.

Long ago, using monoblock amplifiers I carried an interesting experiment - I wired my partially disassembled ESL63 directly to the output wires of the amplifier and compared with using good quality speaker cables. Everyone found that using speaker cables the sound was more neutral... At that time curiously we also found that wrapping the speakers cables with aluminum foil and connecting it to the amplifiers ground completely killed the life of the system. How could we seriously connect neutrality with electrical noise or RF?

I have many types of power cords - long before reading David on the Ching Cheng's in this forum I had read Lew Johnson on the similar hospital power cords he was using with his electronics - in Europe at some time we were getting inferior sounding cj equipment, as his power cables were not CE certified and the distributors supplied a CE approved cheap power cable. Fortunately I managed to get his approved cables. But I feel that each system is different entity and generalizations on the tonal effects of power cables can be very misleading.

We had a very interesting thread in WBF on power cables in the past, where Gary Koh exposed his findings and his power cables with great detail, with much more depth than usually manufacturers do. I still regret that as they have no CE certification I was not able to try them at that time.




.
 

ack

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Patents are not science - in fact scientific theories can not be patented.

Umm, I beg to vehemently disagree. Here's a relevant New York Times article https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordeba...le-of-patents-in-limiting-scientific-research

Patents on scientific discoveries made in academic or non-profit settings don’t necessarily limit research. Generally speaking, inventions made with federal funding can be patented, but the university or nonprofit institution behind the researcher usually owns the patent rights. The researcher is credited as the inventor but the researcher’s employer — usually, the university — controls the patent and determines who may use the invention and for what purpose.
The existence of a patent could let an institution prevent some uses of the invention that are deemed unethical. Universities that hold biotechnology patents generally grant a site license to other nonprofit institutions for a relatively small fee (on the order of $5,000 - $10,000 per year), giving people at the paying institution the opportunity to use the patented technology in non-commercial research. Universities also license patents to for-profit companies. In both cases, university patent owners could use their license to put some restrictions on what the licensee can do.
Biotech discoveries, as an example, are science and are patentable. I can give you numerous other examples. The CX patent showed how it can reduce noise by virtue of construction.
 

microstrip

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Umm, I beg to vehemently disagree. Here's a relevant New York Times article https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordeba...le-of-patents-in-limiting-scientific-research

Patents on scientific discoveries made in academic or non-profit settings don’t necessarily limit research. Generally speaking, inventions made with federal funding can be patented, but the university or nonprofit institution behind the researcher usually owns the patent rights. The researcher is credited as the inventor but the researcher’s employer — usually, the university — controls the patent and determines who may use the invention and for what purpose.
The existence of a patent could let an institution prevent some uses of the invention that are deemed unethical. Universities that hold biotechnology patents generally grant a site license to other nonprofit institutions for a relatively small fee (on the order of $5,000 - $10,000 per year), giving people at the paying institution the opportunity to use the patented technology in non-commercial research. Universities also license patents to for-profit companies. In both cases, university patent owners could use their license to put some restrictions on what the licensee can do.
Biotech discoveries, as an example, are science and are patentable. I can give you numerous other examples. The CX patent showed how it can reduce noise by virtue of construction.

Yes, I could have added that biotechnology is an exception to this concept of patents and there are lot of ethical and legal debates on the subject . Patents on software are also a different issue - these warnings usually show in any text on patents. I was just addressing the usual classical concept of patent, that IMHO applies to our debates in WBF.

Although I appreciate a lot the Shunyata products, their patents does not prove any scientific innovation - how could it be possible if we are not able to correlate noise in mains with audio signal distortion? It just patents the construction, impeding others to use a similar one. In fact a similar text could be used for other geometries and materials, if it was not for copyright issues!
 
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ack

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Although I appreciate a lot the Shunyata products, their patents does not prove any scientific innovation - how could it be possible if we are not abl

No patent is proof of anything. That comes from the accompanying empirical evidence, like measurements or drug effectiveness studies. Shunyata are just about the only ones that provide real measurements on their power products, to back the patents.
 

dan31

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Remember that patents are for the collective benefit of society. Once a patent expires everyone has a chance to benefit. ~90% of prescription medicine is generic. These affordable medicines would not be available or even discovered if there was no patent protection to encourage innovation. This applies across all technology.
 
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ack

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The Shunyata Denali 6000/S V2 + Venom NR & XC cords

As I've written before, the Yggy2 has been a tremendous performer in here, helping me re-voice the Alpha as close to it as possible, but still leaving the Alpha DAC behind and only for HDCD. Then, after having realized that, with the Alpha, I've been mostly dealing with noise management, I decided to try a Venom V12 NR on the Alpha - it's a noise reducing cord, that utilizes only copper conductors (unlike the higher end models which also mix in silver as well - I don't understand why this would ever truly improve anything).

It immediately catapulted the Alpha way beyond the Yggy2 - wonderful, if not shocking, results. Timbre, articulation, low-level resolution, micro-dynamics and dynamic headroom off the charts; bass a lot tighter, and very clear separation of instruments. I quickly bought another V12 NR for the Yggy2, and after four days, it did approach this modified Alpha, but just couldn't and still can't match its newly-acquired performance.

Then I looked at Shunyata's specs about the operating frequency spectrums of their cords and the Denali 6000/S V2 conditioner, and realized they are probably complementary. The moment I plugged in both DACs, phono, preamp AND monoblocks into the Denali, performance went up another notch, rendering very analog sounds out of redbook digital. Fascinating results. The V2 of the Denali is claimed to not suppress current flow - and I don't hear any with the amplifiers plugged into it. On the contrary, dynamics all around have skyrocketed. The Denali did take 3 days to break in, and more importantly, it did not do any harm when initially plugged in.

The superiority of the Alpha over the Yggy is quite evident in terms of higher dynamic headroom and punch, especially with drums. They are level-matched, and I can easily A/B them on the preamp. I also find the Alpha clearer in the midrange, with the Yggy exhibiting a couple of resonances in certain frequencies, which were there all along (just lower in magnitude now). My son kept saying "put it back, put it back", every time I would switch to the Yggy from the Alpha. This is all quite interesting, while also considering that the Alpha runs cheaper Venom RCA interconnects as well (the Yggy still has the MIT 50ic, as does the phono and amps).

Then, I decided to move the Yggy's Venom V12 NR to the Pass XP-25 phono, and the results from this phono chain were as spectacular as the Alpha's - double the confirmation of their effectiveness.

For the amps and preamp, I am going to replace their older Shunyata CX with the Venom V10 XC (not noise-reducing cords), while I have other V12 NR on order for all source components.

Shunyata deserve my deepest respect for these latest products. Simply spectacular! But try before you buy.
 
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Mdp632

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The Shunyata Denali 6000/S V2 + Venom NR & XC cords

As I've written before, the Yggy2 has been a tremendous performer in here, helping me re-voice the Alpha as close to it as possible, but still leaving the Alpha DAC behind and only for HDCD. Then, after having realized that, with the Alpha, I've been mostly dealing with noise management, I decided to try a Venom V12 NR on the Alpha - it's a noise reducing cord, that utilizes only copper conductors (unlike the higher end models which also mix in silver as well - I don't understand why this would ever truly improve anything).

It immediately catapulted the Alpha way beyond the Yggy2 - wonderful, if not shocking, results. Timbre, articulation, low-level resolution, micro-dynamics and dynamic headroom off the charts; bass a lot tighter, and very clear separation of instruments. I quickly bought another V12 NR for the Yggy2, and after four days, it did approach this modified Alpha, but just couldn't and still can't match its newly-acquired performance.

Then I looked at Shunyata's specs about the operating frequency spectrums of their cords and the Denali 6000/S V2 conditioner, and realized they are probably complementary. The moment I plugged in both DACs, phono, preamp AND monoblocks into the Denali, performance went up another notch, rendering very analog sounds out of redbook digital. Fascinating results. The V2 of the Denali is claimed to not suppress current flow - and I don't hear any with the amplifiers plugged into it. On the contrary, dynamics all around have skyrocketed. The Denali did take 3 days to break in, and more importantly, it did not do any harm when initially plugged in.

The superiority of the Alpha over the Yggy is quite evident in terms of higher dynamic headroom and punch, especially with drums. They are level-matched, and I can easily A/B them on the preamp. I also find the Alpha clearer in the midrange, with the Yggy exhibiting a couple of resonances in certain frequencies, which were there all along (just lower in magnitude now). My son kept saying "put it back, put it back", every time I would switch to the Yggy from the Alpha. This is all quite interesting, while also considering that the Alpha runs cheaper Venom RCA interconnects as well (the Yggy still has the MIT 50ic, as does the phono and amps).

Then, I decided to move the Yggy's Venom V12 NR to the Pass XP-25 phono, and the results from this phono chain were as spectacular as the Alpha's - double the confirmation of their effectiveness.

For the amps and preamp, I am going to replace their older Shunyata CX with the Venom V10 XC (not noise-reducing cords), while I have other V12 NR on order for all source components.

Shunyata deserve my deepest respect for these latest products. Simply spectacular! But try before you buy.

@ack Are you running a dedicated 20AMP line(s) for your system?
 
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sbnx

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Shunyata rocks again

To me, audiophile power cords are, for the most part, a scam. To consider any one of them, they must meet certain basic criteria:

1) Fully shielded
2) Extremely fast high-current delivery
3) Must trap and reduce noise
4) Must not take anything away
5) Only copper need apply
6) They must be backed by scientific evidence

-ack

Ack, just curious about #5. Why do you believe only Copper should apply? Silver is a better conductor than copper. So in theory it should deliver slightly more current than its copper counterpart.
 

ack

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Are you running a dedicated 20AMP line(s) for your system?

No, I don't have anything special. Just one 15A circuit, with 10awg wire. I do have high quality circuit breakers. No question I could improve, but also no way I would ever tear down walls for this stuff either.
 

sbnx

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A different opinion - IMHO decent power cables can't add anything - at best they can remove.

Question: How do you add dynamics? In theory all of the dynamics of the recording are fully there and can only be restricted by something. A perfect PC would not restrict the system's sense of dynamics at all. But nothing is perfect. So If my new PC is less restrictive then doesn't it "add dynamics" to the system?
 

ack

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Ack, just curious about #5. Why do you believe only Copper should apply? Silver is a better conductor than copper. So in theory it should deliver slightly more current than its copper counterpart.

Quite simple: my in-wall wire is all copper, and so is anything coming into the house. So why - and how - would a single run of 2m silver do anything in terms of current delivery, especially when the return length in the Shunyatas is also copper. Have you seen their pictures? Coax, with the inner run silver, and copper all around it.
 

ack

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Question: How do you add dynamics? In theory all of the dynamics of the recording are fully there and can only be restricted by something. A perfect PC would not restrict the system's sense of dynamics at all. But nothing is perfect. So If my new PC is less restrictive then doesn't it "add dynamics" to the system?

You do not really "add" dynamics per se, so you are right about "all of the dynamics of the recording are fully there and can only be restricted by something". Instead, power line noise and other factors suppress dynamics in the reproducing chain, and addressing those improve/restore dynamics in the chain. Noise is a real killjoy, but so is lack of instantaneous current delivery, or lack of proper metal-to-metal contact. These are the issues we are trying to address, in order to regain lost dynamics, and other things.
 

sbnx

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Quite simple: my in-wall wire is all copper, and so is anything coming into the house. So why - and how - would a single run of 2m silver do anything in terms of current delivery, especially when the return length in the Shunyatas is also copper. Have you seen their pictures? Coax, with the inner run silver, and copper all around it.

Isn't that the same argument that everyone uses on why audiophiles spend big money on a 2 m power cord when there is 50-100 feet of Romex just to get back to the break panel and then 100's of feet before that back to the transformer.

I don't know about copper plated silver or silver plated copper. I am thinking 100% silver wire.
 

sbnx

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Quite simple: my in-wall wire is all copper, and so is anything coming into the house. So why - and how - would a single run of 2m silver do anything in terms of current delivery, especially when the return length in the Shunyatas is also copper. Have you seen their pictures? Coax, with the inner run silver, and copper all around it.

Ack, Thanks for the reply but my question was directed more at micro as he said "PC's can't add anything".
 

ack

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Isn't that the same argument that everyone uses on why audiophiles spend big money on a 2 m power cord when there is 50-100 feet of Romex just to get back to the break panel and then 100's of feet before that back to the transformer.

I don't know about copper plated silver or silver plated copper. I am thinking 100% silver wire.

Yes, It's basically the same argument. Here, we are trying to improve upon crappy stock cords, and reduce noise at the same time. These Venom cords simply improve upon the older CX I have, which did also attenuate noise, but not to this degree.
 

ack

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Ack, Thanks for the reply but my question was directed more at micro as he said "PC's can't add anything".

Yes, sorry, I just saw that... :)
 

ack

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The Shunyata Denali 6000/S V2 + Venom NR & XC cords - The Verdict

The moment I plugged in both DACs, phono, preamp AND monoblocks into the Denali, performance went up another notch, rendering very analog sounds out of redbook digital. Fascinating results. The V2 of the Denali is claimed to not suppress current flow - and I don't hear any with the amplifiers plugged into it. On the contrary, dynamics all around have skyrocketed. The Denali did take 3 days to break in, and more importantly, it did not do any harm when initially plugged in.

(this is going to be long)

This round of assault on power quality has wrapped up, and it's been a long and arduous cycle. After settling on the in-series resistor to the panel's crossover at 1.23Ohms (up from 1.21Ohms, and with obvious negative effects at 1.25Ohms), it was time for careful listening to the following power configuration:

- Denali 6000/S V2 fed by a Venom V10 XC
- 2 Venom V10 XC (non noise-reducing) to the amps
- 5 Venom V12 NR (noise-reducing) to the DACs, phono, preamp and subwoofer
- The Denali feeds the DACs, phono, preamp, amps
- On the speaker side, I have used my old MIT Magnum Z Trap filters to power the panels, plus another filter to the FM tuner
- The Denali offers very wide spectrum of noise reduction according to Shunyata's specs, while the NR cords appear to complement it with a more narrow field.

To get to this point, I unfortunately had to play the same ~50 CDs over and over and over again for over 9 months, and thankfully my family have not killed me yet. The purpose of this repeated auditioning was to identify and isolate problem areas.

I engaged in some interesting tests:

1) Plug the amps directly to the wall - obvious drop in sonic performance, including micro- and macro dynamics and loss of detail. Quite expected, considering that noise will suck the life out of them

2) Plug one amp to the wall and the other to the Denali - the Denali-fed amp sounded so obviously superior that it wasn't even funny. Switching to Mono on the preamp yielded some funny results; quite amusing actually

3) Replace the Venom NR cords with my old Shunyata CX one more time, and performance dropped a bit, which certified yet again the Venom's superiority again (the CX have been sold at a fair price)

My approach to power conditioning has always been holistic, not just replacing a cord or two. The Verdict is quite obvious: tremendous gains in micro- and macro-dynamics, riddance of some slightly-euphonic notes, really tight, taught and deep bass - and above all, a significant improvement in timbre and articulation, shocking in fact. The drop in distortion has also re-enabled me again, for the umpteenth time, to revisit the SD/HD switch on the MIT speaker cables, and now I can easily settle back on HD! UGH, this has been frustrating to say the least, but finally rewarding at the same time.

It all started with one experimental NR cord to the Alpha DAC, and it quickly became the power-conditioning project I had in mind for years. The total cost is not insignificant, but the improvements are the equivalent of a major component upgrade - it is that serious.

Since I bought the CX cords about a decade ago - with their beautiful noise-reducing geometry, courtesy of some professor from whom they licensed it - Shunyata has come a long way. The sheer fact they have been able to come up with acceptable performance-measuring techniques for cords and other devices is commendable; I don't know anyone else in the business that does this.

Regarding those Shunyata measurements, there has been some criticism; but all they are doing is compare their individual electrical component against others of the same kind, and provide the measurements to support their claims. This type of comparison is no different than for any other electrical component, be it capacitors, resistors, transistors, transformers... whatever have you. A capacitor manufacturer, for example, may throw all kinds of measurements to support a claim that their product is superior than others, and that doesn't mean it's irrelevant or out of context. On the contrary, those who buy said superior capacitors know well enough that there are weak links where they are trying to plug them in, that said component is one of many in a chain or cluster, and that all of them have to perform at the same level in order to enjoy the benefits of each individual component's design. The same applies to all electrical components, including cords, and this is why upgrading capacitors can work wonders; ditto for transformers, cords, at al

Effectively, Shunyata's argument is that their L6F (Last 6 Feet) is demonstrably better than others' L6F, and that if you buy theirs your weakest link may be your upstream wiring, and if your upstream wiring is of equally quality, then you will achieve the maximum benefit; and if it isn't, then stick with the cords you have. I happen to have 8awg in-wall solid wiring and quality breakers.

The bottom line is that, in this system and with this configuration (Denali/Venom), Shunyata's latest efforts easily demonstrate a home-run and major achievement in power conditioning. I did rely on a couple of reviews of the Denali 6000/S V2 and Everest on audiobeat.com for part of my decisions.

-ack
 
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sbnx

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Congrats Ack. You had that earlier attack on noise using the Mu metal and Now you have removed most of your AC nosie. I am sure it is sounding great.
 
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