ack's system - end of round 1

ack

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My Xmas present: copper foil... Or why cable networks must be shielded

I have to admit, 2017 has been my best year ever: health, stable family, kid is doing incredibly well in school, job stability, and lots of audio modifications that have yielded tremendous sonic benefits - I cannot be more thankful.

And the latest sonic breakthrough started with a rather odd series of events, a few months ago when I had the Vivaldi 2.0 DAC in, along with the Transparent Ref XL digital cable. With that utterly stupid digital cable that everyone raves about, the Vivaldi would just lose the lock, and I ended up swapping my MIT MA-X cable between it and my modified Alpha DAC. Apparently the Vivaldi and my Spectral transport have an tight PLL loop. Fine... So the Vivaldi 2.0 and Alpha sounded very much the same, although I had to level-match them by lowering the Vivaldi volume, and it did sound a little better at 0dB gain, though not exactly what I would call "stunning", but surely extremely good.

To prove that the MIT network boxes are susceptible to any type of noise, I experimented with the MIT phono high-level interconnects which I moved close to the DAC, and then muted the XP-25 phono - et voila, at close range, and with the preamp gain at max, dead silence but there was just a tiny bit of buzz. I then moved the network boxes away from the DAC, and the buzz went away... OK, we now know they will pick up some noise, even if by a small amount.

Then, thinking about the amount of noise that the silly Transparent must have been picking up, I decided the other day to copper-shield all of my MIT network boxes, including the MA-X digital, with all shields routed to phono ground (a convenience). And then, my jaw dropped with digital (and less so with my phono)... the level of vividness through this modified Alpha DAC truly shocked me: the wind instruments in the Proteus 7 CD (aka James Bond, as we've been calling it internally and in these pages) sounded so incredibly life-like and even more dynamic (micro and macro) - this is not funny.

I had to make sure the evaluation was not just expectation bias, so I went back to the Mahler 2nd CD that I've written about here many times, and especially those tiny triangles that Al and I were discussing earlier, which would appear and disappear based on the digital volume control. Well, they are all now there and very vivid, and at the lower digital volume setting we settled on. Well, this proved again that digital volume settings do deal with noise differently. I had to repeat the listening test the next day to be sure - and yes, the vividness and increase in timbral accuracy are unmistakable and classes higher... this is no expectation bias. Shocking results, to be quite honest. I kept marveling at the truthful timpani and piano attack...

Let me make this clear: redbook like this I have not yet heard from any other digital component that has graced my system, nor in a dealer setting, save for the full Vivaldi 2.0 stack: not the Vivaldi 2.0 DAC although it might match or surpass the Alpha now with the shielded cables; not the Spectral SDR-4000SV which I admired so but just couldn't stop thinking it needs more work; not the Rossini which not only sounded euphonic, it actually sometimes sounded wrong; and certainly, at the bottom of the pit, not the older Spectral SDR-4000SL and its earlier revisions which sounded simply OK, if not broken by today's standards.

Now, here's the real kicker: I did not get _anywhere_ near this kind of sound at Goodwin's with the new DMA-500 amps driving the Magico M3s, and the 4000SV and 30SV, using much more expensive MIT cables - after three auditions now. Now more than ever, I think the M3s are just one broken speaker in an absolute high-end context (not that they are not a much better speaker than most), but I do need to confirm that by bringing the 500s into my system, to confirm they are not themselves broken. As it currently stands, there is just no way I would ever choose the M3s over my speakers.

I have nothing further to say right now, so I am going to leave final judgement to others when they come visit, but from this vantage point, I have utmost respect for the Berkeley folks, who have apparently given me a solid platform which I can modify and make sing so well - I still bet they are using JFETs in the analog output section. This digital now sounds so analog, it's frankly fascinating - and maybe for the first time I'll say, I just LOVE redbook when done right.

So much progress with so little money spent this year.
 
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DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2010
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La Jolla, Calif USA
I have to admit, 2017 has been my best year ever: health, stable family, kid is doing incredibly well in school, job stability, and lots of audio modifications that have yielded tremendous sonic benefits - I cannot be more thankful.

And the latest sonic breakthrough started with a rather odd series of events, a few months ago when I had the Vivaldi 2.0 DAC in, along with the Transparent Ref XL digital cable. With that utterly stupid digital cable that everyone raves about, the Vivaldi would just lose the lock, and I ended up swapping my MIT MA-X cable between it and my modified Alpha DAC. Apparently the Vivaldi and my Spectral transport have an tight PLL loop. Fine... So the Vivaldi 2.0 and Alpha sounded very much the same, although I had to level-match them by lowering the Vivaldi volume, and it did sound a little better at 0dB gain, though not exactly what I would call "stunning", but surely extremely good.

To prove that the MIT network boxes are susceptible to any type of noise, I experimented with the MIT phono high-level interconnects which I moved close to the DAC, and then muted the XP-25 phono - et voila, at close range, and with the preamp gain at max, dead silence but there was just a tiny bit of buzz. I then moved the network boxes away from the DAC, and the buzz went away... OK, we now know they will pick up some noise, even if by a small amount.

Then, thinking about the amount of noise that the silly Transparent must have been picking up, I decided the other day to copper-shield all of my MIT network boxes, including the MA-X digital, with all shields routed to phono ground (a convenience). And then, my jaw dropped with digital (and less so with my phono)... the level of vividness through this modified Alpha DAC truly shocked me: the wind instruments in the Proteus 7 CD (aka James Bond, as we've been calling it internally and in these pages) sounded so incredibly life-like and even more dynamic (micro and macro) - this is not funny.

I had to make sure the evaluation was not just expectation bias, so I went back to the Mahler 2nd CD that I've written about here many times, and especially those tiny triangles that Al and I were discussing earlier, which would appear and disappear based on the digital volume control. Well, they are all now there and very vivid, and at the lower digital volume setting we settled on. Well, this proved again that digital volume settings do deal with noise differently. I had to repeat the listening test the next day to be sure - and yes, the vividness and increase in timbral accuracy are unmistakable and classes higher... this is no expectation bias. Shocking results, to be quite honest. I kept marveling at the truthful timpani and piano attack...

Let me make this clear: redbook like this I have not yet heard from any other digital component that has graced my system, nor in a dealer setting: not the Vivaldi 2.0 although it might match or surpass the Alpha now with the shielded cables; not the Spectral SDR-4000SV which I admired so but just couldn't stop thinking it needs more work; not the Rossini which not only sounded euphonic, it actually sometimes sounded wrong; and certainly, at the bottom of the pit, not the older Spectral SDR-4000SL and its earlier revisions which sounded simply OK, if not broken.

Now, here's the real kicker: I did not get _anywhere_ near this kind of sound at Goodwin's with the new DMA-500 amps driving the Magico M3s, and the 4000SV and 30SV, using much more expensive MIT cables - after three auditions now. Now more than ever, I think the M3s are just one broken speaker in an absolute high-end context (not that they are not a much better speaker than most), but I do need to confirm that by bringing the 500s into my system, to confirm they are not themselves broken. As it currently stands, there is just no way I would ever choose the M3s over my speakers.

I have nothing further to say right now, so I am going to leave final judgement to others when they come visit, but from this vantage point, I have utmost respect for the Berkeley folks, who have apparently given me a solid platform which I can modify and make sing so well - I still bet they are using JFETs in the analog output section. This digital now sounds so analog, it's frankly fascinating - and maybe for the first time I'll say, I just LOVE redbook when done right.

So much progress with so little money spent this year.

Tasos, thanks for the update.
Is it possible that you are hearing the issues with the Magico tweeter that is used with the M3's and of course, others in their lineup. The Beryllium tweeters are either going to float your boat... or they are not, IMO. Personally, I think they can be a major deterrent depending on the kind of music and upstream gear.
I recently heard the new YG tweeter, which is a silk dome variant with a metal composite combo, this tweeter is really special...if you get a chance to listen to these new YG's. I think you will easily hear the issues with the Beryllium domes.
 
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ack

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I've complained about the M3's bottom end -just missing - and the midrange sounds weird as well... I have to go read what I wrote earlier in this thread, but it's not the tweeter; the tweeter is actually an engineering marvel and very clean.
 

Kingsrule

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ack

you observations are TOTALLY irrelevant in any context except one...your totally modified, one of a kind assemblage of components. Do u really think anyone cares what u say compared to your gaggle of modified stuff??? And really, Spectral, Martin Logan and Berkley just aren't that good. No wonder u have to modify all your stuff.

Your electrical prowess is really amazing but your arrogance is really over the top........
 

ack

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This is why I post on my thread, my friend. Now buzz off, and try to learn something, like how to deal with noise perhaps (another arrogant comment)
 

DaveyF

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Jul 31, 2010
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I've complained about the M3's bottom end -just missing - and the midrange sounds weird as well... I have to go read what I wrote earlier in this thread, but it's not the tweeter; the tweeter is actually an engineering marvel and very clean.

Interesting, as many times, and IME, the beryllium dome can make the rest of the spectrum sound a little 'weird'. Depending on the upstream gear, this is more or less noticeable. OTOH, if you liked the sound of the high freq's, that is a good sign. BTW, I see the Magico fan boys are already hiking over here...LOL.
 

ack

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You could be right. Whatever it is, I just cannot warm up to this speaker.
 

DaveyF

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Jul 31, 2010
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You could be right. Whatever it is, I just cannot warm up to this speaker.

I have not heard the new M3’s, but the buy in price would certainly make me hold it to a very high standard indeed. Perhaps that is what is going on with you too...and if so, rightly so.
That’s one of the problems for companies that price their wares at sky high prices, people expect a great deal, and most times more than the product can deliver. I wonder if the M3’s were priced at the same price as the new A series (which I believe utilize a similar tweeter) if you would have the same impressions?
 

Ron Resnick

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The three times I have enjoyed Magico speakers were with tubes driving the speakers, so it automatically makes sense to me that Spectral would be way too much of a "squeaky clean" sound for Magicos.
 

ack

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@Davey: yes, the M3's high price is inviting scrutiny. At a lower price, I simply would not care to comment on it; and in neither case could I ever live with it, as it currently stands. I am coming out of these auditions utterly frustrated. As you know, there are a number of Magicos I really love, but this one isn't in that pool...

@Ron: Yes, I think you may have a point: squeaky clean. A while ago, I called the M3 the technical speaker - but is it musical. I am just not getting that impression. Maybe the demos are exposing digital artifacts that I just can't tolerate - I don't really know to be honest.
 

Mdp632

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May 29, 2016
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@Davey: yes, the M3's high price is inviting scrutiny. At a lower price, I simply would not care to comment on it; and in neither case could I ever live with it, as it currently stands. I am coming out of these auditions utterly frustrated. As you know, there are a number of Magicos I really love, but this one isn't in that pool...

@Ron: Yes, I think you may have a point: squeaky clean. A while ago, I called the M3 the technical speaker - but is it musical. I am just not getting that impression. Maybe the demos are exposing digital artifacts that I just can't tolerate - I don't really know to be honest.


@ack I second Davey's suggestion to check out the new YG Sonja 2.2 speaker. This has their latest tweeter from the their 265k XV super speaker. I believe it is in the same range or maybe less MSRP as a Magico M3 price wise. There is a review of the Sonja 2.2 coming out in Jan 2018 issue of the absolute sound.
 
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PeterA

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@Ron: Yes, I think you may have a point: squeaky clean. A while ago, I called the M3 the technical speaker - but is it musical. I am just not getting that impression. Maybe the demos are exposing digital artifacts that I just can't tolerate - I don't really know to be honest.

I have often asked to listen to their vinyl source when auditioning a Magico speaker at Goodwins, especially if they are using a none dCS DAC with Spectral. It does not always work out that way, but if you are going in for the purpose of auditioning the new super Spectral amps and these speakers, I would think that you could request the source component. I've also requested the middle room for smaller Magicos. That big room can be brutal for smaller speakers. The M3, like the Q3 before it, might need massive power behind it to load up the large room. We discussed the Q3 audition requiring the massive Boulder 1000 watt amps in that large Goodwins room. Your criticism of the M3 seems to be about anemic bass.
 

ack

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@ack I second Davey's suggestion to check out the new YG Sonja 2.2 speaker. This has their latest tweeter from the their 265k XV super speaker. I believe it is in the same range or maybe less MSRP as a Magico M3 price wise. There is a review of the Sonja 2.2 coming out in Jan 2018 issue of the absolute sound.

I got your PM. The cables are the acc169 and ma-x2. And patience, you will get your Spectral before the decade is out ?? I too want to listen to the Avalon Saga one day, maybe in NYC. Thanks for the info on it and YG.
 
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BMCG

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Curious that JVS (Stereophile) lauded the Q3's driven by Spectral/MIT https://www.stereophile.com/content/spectral-debut-mit-and-magico

Granted a show but...still he did not come away decrying the combo...

Been meaning to ask KJWestOne here in London to set up their M3's with a dCS stack/NAIM Statement....be curious to see how that combo fairs...especially given they've just received the Alexia 2's.

Ack - FWIW I very much appreciate your journey/commentary/perspective...long may you provide.
 

ack

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Curious that JVS (Stereophile) lauded the Q3's driven by Spectral/MIT https://www.stereophile.com/content/spectral-debut-mit-and-magico

Granted a show but...still he did not come away decrying the combo...

Been meaning to ask KJWestOne here in London to set up their M3's with a dCS stack/NAIM Statement....be curious to see how that combo fairs...especially given they've just received the Alexia 2's.

Ack - FWIW I very much appreciate your journey/commentary/perspective...long may you provide.

Thanks. The 300RS and 400RS never had a problem driving the Q3s, but the 360s did (hence the Boulder/Q3 combo that Peter mentioned) - in fact, I enjoyed every single demo of those combinations, but unfortunately, the M3 just fails to impress me.

Regarding perspective: I always question authority, if you consider manufacturers true authority. In the end, I feel we all make mistakes, to one degree or another.
 

Folsom

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I've heard them M3's. They're great speakers. If they sound wrong to you, something is up. I can say that the highs were not what they should be until a little bit of power treatment (mine). But I don't blame the speakers for doing anything more than showing you what your gear is doing.

I will say I did like the tube sound with them more than SS, but SS was no slouch in the least. I think anyone would feel blessed to have the sound I heard.
 

PeterA

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I've heard them M3's. They're great speakers. If they sound wrong to you, something is up. I can say that the highs were not what they should be until a little bit of power treatment (mine). But I don't blame the speakers for doing anything more than showing you what your gear is doing.

I will say I did like the tube sound with them more than SS, but SS was no slouch in the least. I think anyone would feel blessed to have the sound I heard.

This is more consistent with what I have read about other auditions. Thank you for sharing your observations.
 

ack

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Thinking about this today, the best way I can describe the M3 as demonstrated to me is that it sounds like a much better V3, but still with clear shortcomings: like the V3, the deep bass is missing and M3 owners around here and other sites end up using subs - the speaker sounds thin in the bass; it also seems challenged trying to fill a large room appropriately, and the V3 really couldn't either, unlike the Q3; and the midrange is a little shouty, at least for my tastes, and overall it sometimes sounds weird. And again, I'll repeat what I said before: why did the Cygnus sound so beautiful by contrast, with effectively the same electronics and in the same room??? Perhaps the M3 needs tubes, so I am going to put this to rest for now - I'd like the local audiophile group to visit Goodwin's and tell me what they think.

Meantime, a MAJOR correction to what I said yesterday: of course I have heard better digital at a dealer setting, and it was the full Vivaldi 2.0 stack - totally forgot about this, gotta go back and correct my post.
 

Folsom

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I think it is fair to say the requirements are higher to get good bass. But I don't think they are bass anemic.
 

Kingsrule

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there is a mint pair of MProjects on AG for about the same price as M3's....seems like a perfect fit for you. A huge step up and a great speaker to distinguish changes
 

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