ack's system - end of round 1

Al M. · Dec 29, 2017

andromedaaudio said:
I think no matter what or which cone design you listen to , panels can do things they cannot they re just a tad faster because of the construction ,

Listening to the Magico M Project, which I have done frequently, makes me question that statement.

and the other way around to , panels dont have the impact as a full range cone can /does

Listening to Ack's panel speakers (which do feature bass cones) driven by the Spectral DMA-400 makes me question that statement. They can be extremely dynamic and impactful. I assume few people have heard such dynamics from panels, which are commonly known as lacking macro-dynamics.

BMCG · Dec 29, 2017

ack said:
Now here's the more interesting thing: Spectral's long-anticipated power conditioner should be around the corner (i.e. in the next two decades or so), and that may shift the sonic picture.

right after the new Phono stage ....

what is the asking price on the DMA500 RA...that is for a pair?

Mdp632 · Dec 29, 2017

ack said:
Agreed. At the same time, I can understand the positive comments about the M3 - for someone who's not used to this level of detail, they will appear amazing; but to someone who is, and considering the price, that person may not be as impressed - that's me. So it's all relative, and comments should be taken with a grain of salt and within context.

Now here's the more interesting thing: Spectral's long-anticipated power conditioner should be around the corner (i.e. in the next two decades or so), and that may shift the sonic picture.

Do they have those amps plugged directly into the wall? Or are they going through a conditioner? If not perhaps have them plugged into a Denali 2000T. Just out of curiosity...Also using all balanced interconnects between the SV and DMA-500s?

ack · Dec 29, 2017

BMCG said:
right after the new Phono stage ....

what is the asking price on the DMA500 RA...that is for a pair?

$40K - it's a lot of money, so this is why I am so eager to get a great sonic impression of them at the dealer, and I end up scratching my head as to how best tell their sound, when driving the M3s... I really need to bring them home...

ack · Dec 29, 2017

Mdp632 said:
Do they have those amps plugged directly into the wall? Or are they going through a conditioner? If not perhaps have them plugged into a Denali 2000T. Just out of curiosity...Also using all balanced interconnects between the SV and DMA-500s?

I know they are driven balanced, but I didn't check the power connection.

Al M. · Dec 29, 2017

ack said:
I know they are driven balanced, but I didn't check the power connection.

Power could make all the difference.

BMCG · Dec 29, 2017

ack said:
.. I really need to bring them home...

That is really the only way to be sure

microstrip · Dec 29, 2017

andromedaaudio said:
I think no matter what or which cone design you listen to , panels can do things they cannot they re just a tad faster because of the construction , and the other way around to , panels dont have the impact as a full range cone can /does

As ar as i know MIT cables and also transparent ones work as low pass filters and on a megaherz scale 20 - 20 khz are of course low freq.

I agree that panels do it differently, in a way no box speaker can do it. But I am not sure that it is because they are "faster". I think it is mainly related to their acoustic (not electrical ... ) impedance. Having experienced Soundlab's driven by an all Krell top system in my listening room I would just say "panels dont have the impact as a full range cone can /does in the very low frequencies " or at high sound levels.

And yes, the network filters do not work in the audio band, just above a few hundred kilohertz - but most people claim they clearly hear it.

andromedaaudio · Dec 29, 2017

Well in the nineties i stripped a LS cable transparent and a MIT box clear , had to use a grinder to do so .
They were both off course from the low cost line lol , in the mit i found a coil with a core in series and in the transparent a cap and resistor in parallel i didnt take a value measurment.
What the cut off freq is i dont know , but one could take a FR measurment on a flat measuring speaker and find out , measure with or without the boxed cables , and see if there is a roll off visible or not

DaveyF · Dec 29, 2017

ack said:
Agreed. At the same time, I can understand the positive comments about the M3 - for someone who's not used to this level of detail, they will appear amazing; but to someone who is, and considering the price, that person may not be as impressed - that's me. So it's all relative, and comments should be taken with a grain of salt and within context.

Now here's the more interesting thing: Spectral's long-anticipated power conditioner should be around the corner (i.e. in the next two decades or so), and that may shift the sonic picture.

Tasos, I read your remarks with little surprise. Whenever I listen to a piece of gear ( at least these days) that has a multi thousand$$ price tag, my expectation for this gear is typically commensurate with its price tag. Unfortunately, I have experienced, only on very rare occasions, that the piece can live up to the price tag. If the M3 don't do it for you, then that is a perfectly reasonable result, because at the price being asked, they should hit all of your hot buttons...with no real down sides, IMHO. Same is true for the DMA 500's. BTW, I am also not a real believer in the fact that the latest is always the greatest. Many times in this hobby, the latest has in fact proven to be a step backwards!! Using our ears to determine this is truly the best arbiter, because IME the press and the dealers certainly won't see it that way. Remember, if it doesn't sound right to you, then it is most likely NOT...
Keep on searching; it's part of the fun of the hobby...( I think

)

bonzo75 · Dec 30, 2017

Mdp632 said:
@ack I second Davey's suggestion to check out the new YG Sonja 2.2 speaker. This has their latest tweeter from the their 265k XV super speaker. I believe it is in the same range or maybe less MSRP as a Magico M3 price wise. There is a review of the Sonja 2.2 coming out in Jan 2018 issue of the absolute sound.

YG Hailey and up is superb. When not set up correctly they sound bright and metallic, but when set up properly, they have the mids and decays of stats with better bass and dynamics than stats. http://zero-distortion.org/yg-hailey/

ack · Dec 30, 2017

andromedaaudio said:
Well in the nineties i stripped a LS cable transparent and a MIT box clear , had to use a grinder to do so .
They were both off course from the low cost line lol , in the mit i found a coil with a core in series and in the transparent a cap and resistor in parallel i didnt take a value measurment.

I saw the same thing in my Transparent back then in the 90s, and the network was wired to be a low-pass filter.

ack · Dec 30, 2017

DaveyF said:
Tasos, I read your remarks with little surprise. Whenever I listen to a piece of gear ( at least these days) that has a multi thousand$$ price tag, my expectation for this gear is typically commensurate with its price tag. Unfortunately, I have experienced, only on very rare occasions, that the piece can live up to the price tag. If the M3 don't do it for you, then that is a perfectly reasonable result, because at the price being asked, they should hit all of your hot buttons...with no real down sides, IMHO. Same is true for the DMA 500's. BTW, I am also not a real believer in the fact that the latest is always the greatest. Many times in this hobby, the latest has in fact proven to be a step backwards!! Using our ears to determine this is truly the best arbiter, because IME the press and the dealers certainly won't see it that way. Remember, if it doesn't sound right to you, then it is most likely NOT...
Keep on searching; it's part of the fun of the hobby...( I think )

+1

Here's one thing that I really like about the M3s: perfect driver integration, like the MPros; a very significant achievement.

ack · Jan 12, 2018

EAR Isodamp C-1002

I've been using EAR Isodamp C-1002 - the blue stuff in the picture below - for about 6-7 years under my speakers and turntable with excellent results, and it was time to experiment with the XP-25 phono preamp and MIT cable network boxes. It is the same material Magico recently introduced in the QPods, albeit in a rather more complex configuration with copper and other materials. One critical requirement here is that Isodamp must be compressed (Magico points out the same), otherwise it's not effective and probably passes vibrations right through (it's a rather stiff material). I discovered it about a decade ago in some aerospace magazine, and it's apparently used widely in that industry, and when used correctly, it works extremely well in our audio applications.

So I first placed it under the XP-25, replacing its stock feet, and the increase in resolution and soundstage was easily and immediately noticeable; granted, I have the tuner and a steel metal plate on top of it providing additional and necessary pressure, but nonetheless the combination has proven very effective in reducing vibrations, and obviously the XP-25 is slightly microphonic. Others did not get the same result with the same phono but no additional weights (unfortunately ignoring my warnings), instead preferring the stock feet which are soft, which proves to me that when Isodamp is not compressed enough, it just passes vibrations right through. This microphonic nature of the phono must have been known to Pass for them to provide the soft feet, which are great and effective, but not as good as Isodamp.

Next, the MIT speaker cable boxes, if you can call the below "boxes" - also shown are the copper and mumetal shields discussed upthread (the copper shield is routed to ground). There, I had to bear down on the box with an additional 20lbs of marble on top to hear any difference, and then the improvement was rather easy to prove: configure one channel's box as shown and leave the other as is; then put the preamp in mono and listen loudly: impossible to hold a steady mono image; not exactly a blind test, but when I configured the other channel the same way, I got back my mono image.

The end result on the MIT boxes was less harshness in parts of the treble range, which proves that these boxes are susceptible to air-borne vibrations. Unlike the phono, it's not clear here if the improvement is a result of the marble damping the plastic MIT box, or the effect of the Isodamp, or both. Nonetheless, a good place to be.

Adimon · Jan 13, 2018

Hi Ack,
Looking at the set-up in your room seems to me far from ideal.

How far is the listening position from the speakers?

ack · Jan 13, 2018

8 ft. It's a living room, so yes, not ideal, but exceptionally quiet if you were to clap your hands, and there are definitely floor-born vibrations as it's a suspended floor. It does benefit from having side walls about 10ft on each side, but I don't have the depth of the soundstage that I would like.

Adimon · Jan 13, 2018

The equipment you have is awesome.
No need for room treatment?

Long time ago i was also looking for electrostatic speakers (Audiostatic Martin Logan) but without succes.
Audiostatic was superb on small acoustic settings.
Martin logan (hybrid type) was lifeless compared to Audiostatic.

ack · Jan 13, 2018

Zero room treatments - the furniture does the damping. It's hard for me to recommend ML electrostatics because I have come to confirm they need major modifications, but lifeless is not the problem. I have said this for years, if electrostatics sound lifeless to you, then they are not properly driven. Very few amplifiers can truly drive them correctly, especially when it comes to dynamics. Same goes for ribbons. I have actually turned people who PM me about ML away from them, unless they have the knowledge to fix them. I bought mine ca 2004 because I knew I could do whatever I wanted to them, and the most important part of it has been redoing the bass crossovers to custom-fit the room - this has been transformational, and very few speakers let you do that and most are ultra-expensive; the exception being hybrid ML with the powered bass modules, however, the cabinets are junk compared to how they built mine or the Prodigy, before Sanders left; not to mention non-parallel walls etc. In addition, these are the only two models I am aware of where each bass driver has a dedicated crossover (that's why I said bass "crossovers" a couple of sentences before). Their architecture was the basis for my purchase, not the sound as they came out of the factory.

Adimon · Jan 14, 2018

Hi Ack,

What is your favorite source?
Which cable do you use from the XP-25 to DMC?

ack · Jan 14, 2018

I don't have a favorite source anymore; it's all about the recording and music right now. But in terms of performance, the pecking order would now be D2D, tape-sourced Reference Recordings LPs, HDCD, and then CD/ordinary LP; and I don't have hi-rez PCM sources, though the DAC supports it. Given how incredibly good this DAC sounds, I am really tempted to feed hi rez PCM, to see if it can match D2D. It is notable that my wife, who does not care about my hobby and has never sat with me for a single audition, was for the first time ever dancing to the music on CD just last night, and I had to videotape this event. Then, she started sifting through my LPs, one by one - a beautiful Saturday night, augmented by a Joe Phelps.

All high-level interconnects are the MIT 50ic. And wrt the XP-25, I settled with a triangle configuration of the Isodamp under the main unit (two upfront, one in the rear), with an additional 10lbs of marble in the rear, with the end result being compressing the rear Isodamp to the point of being really effective, it sitting close to the input and amplification section where it's probably most important - the goal was to shift the center of gravity to the rear, and support the rear with one Isodamp so that it's more compressed than those up front. Frankly, the result was a little shocking. It takes a lot of thinking and experimentation, but it's a lot of fun.

ack's system - end of round 1

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