My New Acquisition: Theta Generation VIII V2 DA Converter

Steve Bruzonsky

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May 15, 2010
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Note: Just got this DAC off Audiogon used today. I am gonna post stuff as I do stuff with it. I ask that folks refrain from using this thread for any marketing and keep questions and posts informational only. For now my Theta CB3 SSP and Six shooter is out of my system, as is my PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC (PWD) and Bridge. I am not doing this thread to necessarily AB compare the PS Audio Perfect Wave Transport (PWD) & PWT or Marantz UD9004 & PWD combos and how they sound to using the PWT or UD9004 with the Theta Generation VIII V2 DAC (Gen 8 V2). I know how my system sounds and if I am moved and really like how something sounds. My concern is long term happiness and enjoyment. Lets see if the Gen 8 V2 gives me this nirvana in two channel!



MY 2011 THETA DIGITAL LOG - Theta Generation VIII V2 DAC



1-30-2011



Took my components in my three Michael Green audio video racks out completely. Took out all cables and power cords. Unscrewed, adjusted shelves, and rescrewed to fit components on how I wanted to rearrange them. Put everything back up. My right hip and legs hurt a good two days doing this but is it worth it – YES!



Right Michael Green AV rack, top to bottom: Marantz UD9004; PS Audio Perfect Wave Transport; Integra HD DVD player; DirecTV HD DVR #1; PS Audio Power Plant Premier.



Center Michael Green AV rack, top to bottom: CB3 HD (will be placed there when comes back from Theta); HVC D-VHS VCR; DirecTV HD DVR #2.



Left Michael Green AV rack, top to bottom: Lumagen Radiance XE (above top shelf); Theta Generation VIII V2 DAC (will be placed there when arrives, just purchased on Audiogon); Theta Six Shooter; APC S15 power conditioner.



I am not running anything using the Six Shooter for now.

.

2-3-2011



Theta Generation VIII V2 DAC arrived today!



I connected to the Theta Generation VIII V2 DAC:

1 – coaxial digital – Marantz UD9004

2 – balanced digital – PS Audio Perfect Wave Transport (PWT)

3 – toslink – DirecTV HD DVR (set to stereo PCM)

4 – pair of balanced analog cables – Marantz UD9004



I went into the DAC’s setup menu and changed what I needed to. I set the DAC to use jitter jail instead of the standard reclocking.



After maybe 2 hours of playing in stereo, I started to do some listenin’.



Listened to CD of Roseanne Cash “The List” initially via UD9004 digital coxial. Easily as good or better than I remember via long term memory when I used the PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC (PWD). I noted that the volume seemed to go higher, cleaner, more effortless. Had to go out for a few hours. Came back, played same CD using PWT, also sounded great. Which one is better? Heck if I know. I am just enjoying and not worrying about comparing for now.



However, I tried a Reference Recordings HRX 176-24 disc via PS Audio PW Transport, connected by Cardas balanced digital cable, but no sound. Theta’s website says the Gen VIII V2 has 24 bit/192 KHz DA conversion. So why doesn’t it handle the HRX 176-24? This is not a deal breaker for me – I have 8 HRX discs. I found a Secrets of Home Theater review online in this regard:



"JVS: Can the Gen. VIII handle 24/176.4 and 24/192 files?

DR: No, only because it’s limited by a receiver chip that’s on its own little board. That’s one of the things we’re looking at changing, which would take it up to 176.4 and 192"

Theta’s website
does state “Digital Input Section (32KHz, 44.1KHz, 48KHz, 88.2KHz, 96KHz)”.



I played the Neil Young blu ray disc of his 1971 live concert, “Live at Massey Hall”, via UD9004, the PCM 2.0 track (the blu ray menu says they offer a 192-24 stereo and also a 96-24 stereo track if the blu ray player can’t play 192-24.) over coaxial digital cable. Sounds great! Certainly as good as when I did this analog out from the UD9004 into Six Shooter. I also tried this same blu ray disc, via UD9004, the stereo analog XLRs. But the Theta DAC is easily just better, more relaxed, cleaner. Wonderful! And the stereo analog XLRs is no slouch at all, and sound like I remember it pre Gen VIII V2 DAC.



Now for “Flute Mystery”, Norwegian 2L’s blu ray & SACD combo package. I put on the blu ray disc. UD9004’s menu shows LPCM 96-24. Sounds great! Again I briefly tried the UD9004 XLR analog out but

doesn’t sound as good to my ears! Though the analog sounded like it did via the Six Shooter when I had my CB3 Six Shooter combo. Can’t wait to get the CB3 HD back so I can play the DTS HD Master track!


Good night!
 
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Orb

New Member
Sep 8, 2010
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However, I tried a Reference Recordings HRX 176-24 disc via PS Audio PW Transport, connected by Cardas balanced digital cable, but no sound. Theta’s website says the Gen VIII V2 has 24 bit/192 KHz DA conversion. So why doesn’t it handle the HRX 176-24? This is not a deal breaker for me – I have 8 HRX discs. I found a Secrets of Home Theater review online in this regard:........

Hey Steve,
did it manage to play 24bit/96khz?
Would be interesting to know if the limitation is the speed or not supporting the auxilary bits to be used for 24 bit recordings via AES/EBU XLR.

Thanks
Orb
 

Steve Bruzonsky

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May 15, 2010
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Hey Steve,
did it manage to play 24bit/96khz?
Would be interesting to know if the limitation is the speed or not supporting the auxilary bits to be used for 24 bit recordings via AES/EBU XLR.

Thanks
Orb


Yes, sounds great for 24-96.
 

Steve Bruzonsky

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May 15, 2010
199
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2-4-2011

Played some of AIX DVD-A 96-24 disc “Cheryl Bentyne”. The PWT won’t play this disc, the Marantz does play this disc. I selected stereo 96-24 track and I set the volume levels of the coaxial digital and analog stereo XLR inputs to the Gen 8, from the Marantz, approximately the same by using the “offset” feature in the Gen 8 setup menu. With equalized volume, I couldn’t differentiate between the two inputs.

Next, played the DVD-A disc of Emmylou Harris “Producers Cut”. Again, only playable on the Marantz. I selected the stereo 96-24 track. Sounded as good as ever via the coaxial digital input to Gen 8. Again, I really couldn’t differentiate between the coaxial digital and stereo analog XLR inputs. They are equally outstanding.
 

tyree91

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May 13, 2010
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2-4-2011

Played some of AIX DVD-A 96-24 disc “Cheryl Bentyne”. The PWT won’t play this disc, the Marantz does play this disc. I selected stereo 96-24 track and I set the volume levels of the coaxial digital and analog stereo XLR inputs to the Gen 8, from the Marantz, approximately the same by using the “offset” feature in the Gen 8 setup menu. With equalized volume, I couldn’t differentiate between the two inputs.

Next, played the DVD-A disc of Emmylou Harris “Producers Cut”. Again, only playable on the Marantz. I selected the stereo 96-24 track. Sounded as good as ever via the coaxial digital input to Gen 8. Again, I really couldn’t differentiate between the coaxial digital and stereo analog XLR inputs. They are equally outstanding.
Speaks well of the Marantz, I should think. Norm
 

Steve Bruzonsky

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May 15, 2010
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Speaks well of the Marantz, I should think. Norm

Yes - the Marantz stereo XLR out quality is top notch - limited only by the quality of the preamp. The Gen 8 V2 is clearly better sounding than the Six Shooter as a preamp for this purpose - at least that my long term memory impression.
 

Steve Bruzonsky

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May 15, 2010
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2-5-2011

Playing CD of Emmylou Harris “Spyboy”. I alternated between playing some cuts on the PWT and the Marantz, with the later alternating between coaxial digital and analog stereo XLR.
Just as in my system prior to the Theta Gen 8, when I used the Six Shooter, the Marantz is better – voices are more “microphonic” like a live performance (this is a live performance),
Everything just sound more “right”. Yea, the Marantz is simply more “magical”. And the Marantz whether by analog stereo XLR or coaxial digital sounds marvelous but I defy anyone to differientiate between the two, they sound the same to me.

Now for the XRCD of Jacintha “Here’s To Ben”. My audiologic-brain response is the same as for “Spyboy” above, except perhaps even more so due to the top notch recording quality of this XRCD.

Keep in mind since for now I am “only” two channel with no subwoofer, that I am letting my brain ignore the added kick to low bass I get when my Aerial subs are in use. I know from experience that this is a real advantage to using digital v. analog stereo out of the Marantz.
And of course the CB3 HD, when I get it, will allow me to have Extreme DACs for the rest of 5.3 channels (front left and right, front center, surround left and right, three subs) “synthesized” per DPL2 or DTS Neo.

Now to try a SACD – Doobie Bros “Takin’ It to the Streets”. One of my all time favorites since my second year of law school when it came out. Playing the SACD stereo track via Marantz, via stereo analog XLR, sounds very nice. If I switch to coaxial digital, I get nothing, since I am playing the SACD stereo track and as the Gen 8 doesn’t convert DSD. Switching to the CD track, still is very nice and listenable, but not as good as SACD! Whats interesting though is that playing it in redbook, the Marantz’ internal DAC conversion, analog XLR out, sounds equivalent to coaxial digital from the Marantz with the Gen 8 doing the conversion. In my “prior” setup with the Marantz to PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC (PWD) via coaxial digital, then analog XLR out to Six Shooter, vs Marantz stereo analog XLR out to Six Shooter, the Marantz digital out was easily superior musically. But now with CD the sonics are virtually indistinguishable. Is this due to the superiority of the Gen 8 over the Six Shooter as an analog preamp???

Now been listenin’ to Steely Dan “Two Against Nature” DVD-A in stereo 96-24 via Marantz, switching some between coaxial digital and stereo analog XLR. Again, the two inputs are simply indistinguishable. Sounds as good or better than ever! Probably better than ever as I’m only playing the stereo track, where in my prior CB3 and Six Shooter system using Marantz multi-channel analog out I listed in multi-channel DVD-A. Just think how much even better it will be when I get the CB3 HD so with the CB3 HD & Gen 8 V2 combo I will be able to do multi-channel DVD-A including whatever hi pass/low pass bass crossover I choose!!! And being able to throw my Aerial subs in the mix. WOW!

Now listenin’ to Steely Dan “Gaucho” SACD in stereo via Marantz stereo analog XLRs. Again, simply outstanding. Can’t wait to make it even better once I get the CB3 HD so I can play in 5.3
(I have three subs) multi-channel SACD!!! AGAIN WOWEE! This is really nice!!@@@ Next I played some of the CD (Mobile Fidelity) of “Gaucho”. Most important, though sounds great, played by Marantz, sounding equivalent whether using Marantz analog stereo XLRs or coaxial digital, clearly not as good sounding as the SACD was. But if I wasn’t comparing SACD v CD the CD would still be excellent and moving!

The more I listen to stuff, the more I see that I will be selling both the PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC and Transport. The Marantz coaxial digital out is clearly superior on redbook used with the Gen 8 compared to the PWT. And using the Gen 8 as a preamp, the Marantz coaxial digital out vs the Marantz stereo analog XLR out sounds the same via the Gen 8. The Marantz is most impressive indeed as is everything about the Gen 8 (except that the Gen 8 currently doesn't do 176-24 or 192-24, though my understanding is that Theta simply needs to replace a receiver chip to accomplish this and hopefully at some point in the near future Theta will do this, so that the Gen 8 can play everything. Nice if Theta would add a port like USB, firewire, etc for music from a computer.
My initial research indicates that per a Secrets of Home Theater Gen 8 review in 2009, the Halide Design USB to SPDIF Bridge (up to 96-24) for $450.00 works well for quaity sonics. They also noted the Wavelength 192 kHz Bridge, but thats more expensive and the Gen 8 currently can only do up to 96-24.
 
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Steve Bruzonsky

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Decided to try a Blu Ray disc via 2 channel analog XLR from Marantz to Gen 8. Went in Marantz menu and set to downmix, and to output PCM instead of bitstream, so that the Marantz does the high rez codec decoded to PCM and output over digital coaxial cable. Guess what? Output PCM stereo audio fine. Actually, with all blu ray players that I’ve had, you can go in the menu and set the player to output bitstream, or to convert to PCM and output PCM. So if you were to set the player to bitstream, the CB3 HD will them simply decode the bitstream to PCM and output that PCM over digital cable, from the digital out card, to the Gen 8. Clearly there has been a lot of misunderstanding, in that the HDMI authorities have permitted the output of hi rez PCM all along, its just video that will be downsampled out of analog outputs.
 

edorr

WBF Founding Member
May 10, 2010
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2-5-2011

The more I listen to stuff, the more I see that I will be selling both the PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC and Transport. The Marantz coaxial digital out is clearly superior on redbook used with the Gen 8 compared to the PWT. And using the Gen 8 as a preamp, the Marantz coaxial digital out vs the Marantz stereo analog XLR out sounds the same via the Gen 8. The Marantz is most impressive indeed as is everything about the Gen 8 ......

My initial research indicates that per a Secrets of Home Theater Gen 8 review in 2009, the Halide Design USB to SPDIF Bridge (up to 96-24) for $450.00 works well for quaity sonics. They also noted the Wavelength 192 kHz Bridge, but thats more expensive and the Gen 8 currently can only do up to 96-24.

Steve, there is one thing that puzzles me about your conclusions from all the A/B'ing you have been doing:

[A] –All else being equal, the ud9004 coax digital into the PWD, sounds better than ud9004 XLR analog out, both using the same preamp (SS), so the PWD is a better DAC than the ud9004.

- All else being equal, the ud9004 coax digital into the GenVIII, sounds the same as the ud9004 XLR analog out, both using the same peramp (GenVIII), so the GenVIII is not a better DAC than the ud9004.

The first obvious conclusion from [A] and would be that the PWD is a better DAC than the GenVIII, and the ud9004 DAC is equivalent to the GenVIII. Whatever the merits of the GenVIII as a preamp, given its big price differential, to me this would mean the quality of the GenVIII as a DAC is disappointing. If I paid GenVIII kind of money for a DAC, I would expect it to blow my ud9004 (and PWD) out of the water on 2 channel.

You can easily compare the PWD and GenVIII DAC section, by hooking up the ud9004 as a transport to the PWD and the GenVIII at the same time (using the two digital outputs), run the PWD XLR outs through the GenVIII as a preamp, and see what sounds best. The PWD is at a disadvantage here because of the extra cabling, so if the PWD route sounds the same or better than the GenVIII it is a better DAC.

Since the ud9004 XLR analog out appears to be equivalent to the S/PDIF into the GenVIII, I would also conclude that to get the best 2-channel playback you are better off spending your money on a very good 2 channel analog preamp with HT bypass than buying a GenVIII. The latter buys you a DAC that is equivalent to the Marantz but a better preamp than the SS. However, for $5K+ you can without a doubt get a better dedicated analog preamp than the GenVIII.
 

Steve Bruzonsky

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I have learned from Roger Dressler, at another web forum, that the coaxial digital output downconverts everything to no more than 48-24. Including blu ray and DVD-A. Plus, the Gen 8 seemed to sound much better on DirecTV starting about 9 last night, coincidentally after being used or on standby for about 100 hours. The manual warns it needs 100 hours warmup - but I didn't realize that applies to a unit already burnt in but that was off for a while. So don't jump too soon to conclusions.
 

edorr

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If that is the case, the GenVIII would indeed be a better DAC than the ud9004, because it sounds as good on 48/24 as the ud9004 on 96/24. There is an easy way to find out what is going on with resolutions. Just hook up the PWD to the ud9004 and play a 96/24 Blu Ray or DVD-A source. The PWD display will tell you what resolution it is receiving from the ud9004. What would still be hard to explain is how the ud9004 XLR analog is equivalent to coax into the GenVIII on CD sources, which are obviously both 44/16.

By the way, hooking up the PWD to the digit out card will also allow you to verify what resolution the digi out card sends out once you get your CBIII back.
 

Steve Bruzonsky

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May 15, 2010
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If that is the case, the GenVIII would indeed be a better DAC than the ud9004, because it sounds as good on 48/24 as the ud9004 on 96/24. There is an easy way to find out what is going on with resolutions. Just hook up the PWD to the ud9004 and play a 96/24 Blu Ray or DVD-A source. The PWD display will tell you what resolution it is receiving from the ud9004. What would still be hard to explain is how the ud9004 XLR analog is equivalent to coax into the GenVIII on CD sources, which are obviously both 44/16.

By the way, hooking up the PWD to the digit out card will also allow you to verify what resolution the digi out card sends out once you get your CBIII back.

Good idea. I do have the PWD set up. I probably won't do this though until this weekend, got to work and then relax some during the week.
 

tyree91

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Good idea. I do have the PWD set up. I probably won't do this though until this weekend, got to work and then relax some during the week.

Steve & Edorr, I just tested the Aix HD Sampler Disc and using the Two Channel 96/24 selection on the disc playing from the Marantz UD-9004, and routing it to my PSA Perfect Wave DAC the SPDIF PCM Stream is down sampled to 48 kHz, and I wouldn't doubt that it's at a bit depth of 16, although I have no way to verify that. I also have no way to test the HDMI Output until my CB HD is returned.
Perhaps other players will pass the 96/24 PCM over SPDIF. I will try to get ahold of an Oppo this week to see. I have one coming in for a customer on Wed. The plot thickens. Norm
 

Steve Bruzonsky

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May 15, 2010
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More on my Theta Generation VIII Series 2 DAC and comparison to analog XLR out of my Marantz UD9004:



2-7-2011



I connected the Marantz via digital coaxial to the PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC (PWD), as the latter set to “Native” tells you the incoming audio resolution rate. What I found that is the if the resolution is higher than 48-24 (96-24 & 192-24) for DVD-Audio or Blu Ray music discs, or if I play a Blu Ray movie with the Marantz set to downmix to two channel PCM, that the audio resolution shown by the PWD is 48-24.



So when I’ve told you that the sonics of a DVD-Audio disc, or a Blu Ray music disc, are the same via coaxial digital (downsampled we know now by Marantz to 48-24 despite the higher resolution on the disc) vs stereo analog XLR out from the Marantz, I am in effect telling you that the Gen VIII Series 2 DAC sounds as good on 48-24 as the Marantz sounds full resolution (96-24 or 192-24 in some cases) XLR stereo analog out.



But lets go another step, too. The Gen VIII Series 2 manual warns you to burn in 100 hours so the Gen VIII sounds like it should. But I have a “used” unit well burnt in you would think.

I had watched some HDTV shows, with my DirecTV HD DVR set to downsample Dolby Digital 5.1 to PCM 2.0. I found DirecTV, connected to the Gen 8 via toslink, generally weak sounding, but better than nothing until I get my CB3 HD upgraded unit back. I wrote this off to the downsampling to PCM 2.0. Funny thing though is last night, once Super Bowl over, I watched a show and started thinking how much better it sounded for DirecTV, that it was sounding quite nice. And tonight, I watched a few HDTV shows, and it sounded awful good in two channel, with the front end sounding better than I remember, though I could tell that I was missing my subs and surrounds. Turns out that by Sunday night I had the Gen 8 on for - - - about 100 hours, either in use or on standby. I guess that everytime the Gen 8 is off for a good period of time, it requires that burn-in to sound like it should!



So I am playing that Emmylou Harris DVD-Audio disc, switching between coaxial digital

(48-24) and XLR stereo analog (96-24), and yea the coaxial digital (Gen 8 DACs) is sounding already a bit better than the analog. WOW!



So the Gen VIII Series 2 is starting to sound like a real keeper.



Also, I will keep the PSD for awhile. So when I get the CB3 HD, I will be able to hook up from the digital out card into the PWD so I can measure the audio resolution. HA!
 

edorr

WBF Founding Member
May 10, 2010
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Steve & Edorr, I just tested the Aix HD Sampler Disc and using the Two Channel 96/24 selection on the disc playing from the Marantz UD-9004, and routing it to my PSA Perfect Wave DAC the SPDIF PCM Stream is down sampled to 48 kHz, and I wouldn't doubt that it's at a bit depth of 16, although I have no way to verify that. I also have no way to test the HDMI Output until my CB HD is returned.
Perhaps other players will pass the 96/24 PCM over SPDIF. I will try to get ahold of an Oppo this week to see. I have one coming in for a customer on Wed. The plot thickens. Norm

I'm not surprised. I recall getting the same results with a 96/24 DAD disc I while ago.

My projection is everything will be fine in 96/24 with the digi out card though. Although (no matter what Theta says) in violation of the HDMI license, the architecture of the CBIII would make it technically near impossibly NOT to send full resolution over the digi out card, so they took their chances.
 

edorr

WBF Founding Member
May 10, 2010
3,139
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So I am playing that Emmylou Harris DVD-Audio disc, switching between coaxial digital

(48-24) and XLR stereo analog (96-24), and yea the coaxial digital (Gen 8 DACs) is sounding already a bit better than the analog. WOW!

Given that the price difference between the two units this should be more reassuring to current and prospective GenVIII owners than parity of SQ. I am still mildly puzzled by the fact that the ud9004 and GenVIII were even close on redbook (while the PWD handily beats the ud9004), but this may be addressed in another rematch .....
 

LesAuber

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Jun 21, 2010
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All of this makes me sorry I didn't keep my Gen V (or was it III?) updated but instead sold it...
 

Steve Bruzonsky

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May 15, 2010
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I had a Generation VA DAC paired with my then Citation 7.0 analog surround processor and Laserdisc and Dwin projector. That was a long time ago in a place where I remain today. HA!
 

tyree91

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May 13, 2010
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I had a Generation VA DAC paired with my then Citation 7.0 analog surround processor and Laserdisc and Dwin projector. That was a long time ago in a place where I remain today. HA!
Steve, we lead a Parallel Existence. I too had a Gen Va as well as Data I & Data III LD players prior to my CB I. I had a nice converstion with Neil Sinclair and Jim White in his office about the efficacy of the CB concept prior to its birth. Back in the days of separate SQ, QS, and MSB DD decoders this idea seemed brilliant to me. Turns out it was. Norm
 

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