Knowing the Unknowable

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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After reading countless posts on this forum since I joined in April 2010, I have formed several opinions about where we are at in this hobby. If you read and believe much of the dogma put forth here, you would come to the conclusion that we are all wandering around in the desert trying to find our way (and maybe we are). Here are some examples that I’m grossly oversimplifying:

1. Everything we ever needed to know about audio measurements has been known for 50 years.
2. Measurements and DBT will lead you to sonic nirvana.
3. Measurements can’t tell you how something will sound and DBT is not to be trusted
4. None of us can ever know if our systems are accurate to the source recording because we weren’t there when it was recorded and mixed.
5. No two recording engineers mix music the same way so we will never have a de facto standard to use when setting up our gear to reproduce as accurately as possible how the music was made.
6. You can’t truly know if you are improving your system and making it more faithful to the source recording because of #4 and #5.
7. You can’t tell if one component is better than another, only which you prefer.


Now, here are some “real truths:”

1. No two pairs of speakers sound the same.
2. No two stereo systems sound the same.
3. No two rooms sound the same.
4. Because of one, two, and three above, we all hear something different from the same recordings when we play music on our systems.
So now I submit, are we all hearing our own slice of the “truth” or have we all picked out components that merely sound as good as we can make them given our disparate budgets and rooms? And if everyone is right, can anyone be wrong? I think the truth lies somewhere in between.
For example, if you chose a speaker for whatever reason that has no appreciable response below 40 Hz but yet measures very flat over the entire FR it does cover, some people would argue that you have distorted the input signal. Some people’s definition of distortion is very narrow. If the output doesn’t equal the input, then you have distortion. So if I presented the speaker with information in the bottom octave (20Hz-40Hz) at the speaker terminals from the amplifier and the speaker can’t play it back, we can argue that the speaker is not faithful to the source through its omission. And I hope that most of us would agree that acts of omission are better than acts of commission. But the fact remains information was left off of the table. Now getting back to my point here; one can argue that your speaker with no output below 40Hz is still providing you a large slice of the truth because everything else you are hearing from it has been deemed to be very accurate based on its measurements and numerous reviewers agreeing on its intrinsic wonderfulness. In conclusion for this example, we can argue that you have a large part of the truth, but you don’t have the whole truth. You can argue that you don’t care about that portion of the truth which is why you chose not to purchase it, but it doesn’t change the fact that you left some truth on the table when you assembled your system.

We have to assume that if we set up a system with wide-band competently designed components in a treated room that we are reproducing the recordings as faithfully as technology allows us to. And having said that, because no two rooms sound the same and no two pairs of speakers sound the same, and no two systems sound the same, the recordings will all sound different when heard over different systems. How do we account for those differences and can we say which is more faithful to the source that we really know nothing about anyway? We don’t know how recordings were made, mixed, and mastered. Everybody can’t be right, and conversely everybody can’t be wrong. Maybe at some point this hobby is like religion, you have to have some faith.

At the end of the day, I think what is important is that you are happy with the choices you have made and that you think you have put yourself on the right path. When you make upgrades to your system and you hear information that maybe you didn’t even know was there before or it clearly sounds better, I think that represents a clue that you are heading in the right direction.
 
Your post reminded me of a story my economics professor once told. She said she was a terrible driver and often would stop at the wrong time, miss looking before turning etc. She went on to say, "isn't it great that all the other drivers are so good that they compensate for my mistakes and help avoid an accident?"

By the same token, while it is true that as individuals, our ability to determine system performance is so limited, we can rely on better resources that some manufacturers have to use all the tools at their disposal from measurement to double-blind tests and subjective evaluations of gray haired designers. Without them, we would indeed be lost in the desert. :)
 
Amir-I don't know who is helping us avoid an accident so I don't get your ecomonics professor story. In your second paragraph, are you primarily referring to speaker designers/manufacturers such as Harmon International? If so, I have a question for you. Harmon represents a number of different speaker manufacturers. Is the sound of their speakers converging or do they all sound different from one to another? And when you have lots of different models in each brand plus the combined number of models for all brands you represent under your banner, aren't they all representing different slices of the truth? They can't all sound the same otherwise their would be no point to all of the different models right? Which brings me right back to my "slices of truth" position.

Measurements, double-blind tests and gray-haired designers performing subjective evaluations doesn't change the fact that at the end of day, you have a bunch of different speakers being manufactured by different companies under one banner that don't sound the same. And if we just break up each of the competing models at close to the same price points from said companies, how close do they sound to each other? I bet we are still back to different slices of the truth here.
 
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Amir, wasn't it Bill Gates that said that the guy to surpass him is probably working in a garage right now or something to that effect? If he wasn't the one that said it, it could easily be attributed to an IBM'er and Gates was the one in the garage. Resources surely help but it is the people that make the difference.

There's a whole lot of talent yet to be discovered out there. Herve D was a subject of a series of DIY articles just a few years back and look where Dartzeel is today, if not in size at least in cache.
 
Amir-I don't know who is helping us avoid an accident so I don't get your ecomonics professor story.
The manufacturer is with their more extensive ability to test things (subjectively or otherwise).

In your second paragraph, are you are primarily referring to speaker designers/manufacturers such as Harmon International?
No, I was referring to all companies with resources to perform a comprehensive analysis. While ago we had a thread on high-end companies with great history of such capabilities. I mentioned Meridian in addition to Harman group. Other companies mentioned there: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...es-have-the-deepest-roots-in-science-of-audio

If so, I have a question for you. Harmon represents a number of different speaker manufacturers. Is the sound of their speakers converging or do they all sound different from one to another?
Different because their target use and application is different. We have two of them in our shop:

JBL Synthesis. Designed to be used with active room correction, multi-amp drive and high SPL reliability. Their soundfield management and DSPs make their sound "right."

Revel. Designed to be used naked driven by one amp typically and no processing and room treatment. Not that they consider this the best way to create an audio system but rather, those are the way audiophiles use these speakers.

And when you have lots of different models in each brand plus the combined number of models for all brands you represent under your banner, aren't they all representing different slices of the truth?
They are.

They can't all sound the same otherwise their would be no point to all of the different models right? Which brings me right back to my "slices of truth" position.

Measurements, double-blind tests and gray-haired designers performing subjective evaluations doesn't change the fact that at the end of day, you have a bunch of different speakers being manufactured by different companies under one banner that don't sound the same. And if we just break up each of the competing models at close to the same price points from said companies, how close do they sound to each other? I bet we are still back to different slices of the truth here.
You are kind of correct but let me provide some perspective :). I recently tested three of the speakers in Revel line going from M22 at $2K to Salon 2s at $22K. I was shocked how similar they sounded. Tonally they were truly part of the family. Yes, the impact increased as you went up the line but you could "feel" the effort that went into making sure they all comply with the same element of truth. BTW, I got the same feeling listening to Totem speakers at CES.

While there is synergy at Harman between their product lines, they do let them operate independently to serve their customers well. At JBL as I noted, reliability is #1 goal. Stuff just can't fail if you are making money from every minute they are working. That is not #1 priority for a consumer scenario although as Kevin Veoks put it, they do borrow an element of that in the design of their consumer gear: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?2603-Kevin-Voeks-on-design-of-Revel-Salon-2.

So as I said, how much testing the manufacturer does to verify their design is a great way to keep us from falling in the ditch, buying products that only sound good in a narrow spectrum of content and configurations.

Note: my company carries Harman products so feel free to dismiss the above as biased commentary :).
 
I sorta feel like Mark's original post should be made a sticky. In many ways it does summarize one heck of a lot of the various philosophies regarding music reproduction.

I thought Dr. Geddes summed it up rather well with this post:

Both science and listening are required, neither alone is of much use. It's a loop that must be closed. We must verify what we (think) we hear with measurements and we must verify what we (hope to)measure with subjective studies. Either one without the other is a problem only half done.

<snip> Science in audio is why it has advanced despite the audiophiles that try to hold it back with false beliefs unproven beliefs that defy science. As I said, only when measurements and subjective evaluations are in complete agreement can we say that we know something. Statements based on one or the other as sole support are not worth arguing about. But that’s not to say that we can't hypothesize about relationships until the results are 100% in agreement, because we can and should. But the goal must always be to bring the two things ever closer into agreement and to use all available data to refine our models. One must also weigh the data by its typical likelihood of stability and accuracy. Subjective data is notoriously unstable as anyone who has done these kinds of experiments will tell you. Measurements have been shown to be stable, accurate and precise, but often measure things which are not relevant and fail to show any subjective correlations. Both sides have their uses and their problems and it is wise to know what they are.
 
Amir, wasn't it Bill Gates that said that the guy to surpass him is probably working in a garage right now or something to that effect? If he wasn't the one that said it, it could easily be attributed to an IBM'er and Gates was the one in the garage. Resources surely help but it is the people that make the difference.
I haven't heard that but maybe he did say it. Here is the thing I *love* about software: all you need is a computer and you are good to do. You can develop a multi-billion dollar company like Facebook using just that. Now, try to create a hardware company that does $1B in business using just a $1000 instrument. Not going to happen. Every turn of PC board sets you back thousands of dollars. Test equipment is expensive. Waiting to test gear and not releasing it is expensive. My degree is in electrical engineering but only 5 out of my 30+ years of experience involved managing hardware design and people. If I can at all avoid it, I will :). It is a tough, tough business with a ton of dependency on suppliers and a destiny you can't control.

There's a whole lot of talent yet to be discovered out there. Herve D was a subject of a series of DIY articles just a few years back and look where Dartzeel is today, if not in size at least in cache.
Well, there was a great line in a book I read on entrepreneurship: "It is easy for big companies to crush little ones." Reason big companies don't do that is because they get bureaucratic and employees work for themselves and not the company. Look at iPod. It was a small idea that flourished with the resources of Apple. Jobs brought the power to push the labels to do 99 cent tracks and his star power. Apple relationships and hardware expertise brought exquisite material and industrial design. And exclusivity deal with Toshiba for 18 months use of then smallest hard disk. Initial marketing budget was $20M (or was it $40?). No garage shop could have managed to do these things.

When flash products came to market, Apple went as far as trying to invest $3.8B in Samsung flash manufacturing. The deal fell apart due to anti-trust concerns but the power they have is incredible. I remember talking to major CE company who manufactures flash memory and they told me their internal cost to buy flash was higher than what Apple was getting!

So big companies when they do it right, are incredibly powerful.
 
I sorta feel like Mark's original post should be made a sticky. In many ways it does summarize one heck of a lot of the various philosophies regarding music reproduction.

I thought Dr. Geddes summed it up rather well with this post:

I missed that post from Dr Geddes.. It says it all .. Should be a sticky ... Very, very true ...
 
Amir, wasn't it Bill Gates that said that the guy to surpass him is probably working in a garage right now or something to that effect? If he wasn't the one that said it, it could easily be attributed to an IBM'er and Gates was the one in the garage. Resources surely help but it is the people that make the difference.

There's a whole lot of talent yet to be discovered out there. Herve D was a subject of a series of DIY articles just a few years back and look where Dartzeel is today, if not in size at least in cache.

Actually it was Newt Ginwritch the former Speaker of the House who repeaed a conversation with Bill Gates.
 
Ron: I love your Dr. Geddes quote. He is spot on.

On this forum (and others I have visited), it is the "science be damned" mentality on one side (many members of that side post here) and "it must be correct because it measures correctly" on the other.

I am of the "measure then verify" camp.

Conservative versus Liberal

Atheist versus Believer

Digital versus Analog
 
Me too. The main reason to verify is in case you made a mistake while measuring. Not because measurements can't tell us everything about fidelity.

--Ethan

Expectation Bias- Do not the measurements cause you to expect the system to sound a certain way.? If you listened first you would not have measurement bias.
 
Expectation Bias- Do not the measurements cause you to expect the system to sound a certain way.? If you listened first you would not have measurement bias.

That's a good point. Thus the value of blind testing where someone else switches while I listen. But it doesn't really take long to know if you messed up a design.

In the 1970s when I owned a pro studio, I designed and built four stereo parametric equalizers. I knew they'd "sound good" and I probably didn't even have access then to suitable test gear. So I built them, put them in the rack, and they worked fine for many years.

--Ethan
 
Mep (is it Mark? I like that better than mep), I agree with most of that. Even, if not especially, the part that applies to my system -- it leaves most of what lies below 40hz off the table and is, therefore, compromised. I do care about that last octave, but not enough to take over a larger room in the house to get it.

Just two points I'd take exception to:

None of us can ever know if our systems are accurate to the source recording because we weren’t there when it was recorded and mixed.

We can certainly know how faithful our systems are to the recorded signal, and that is the source recording, not something that happened in the studio before it was recorded, mixed and mastered. And before we get speakers and rooms, our systems can be very faithful to the recorded signal.

No two stereo systems sound the same

This one depends on what you're calling "the system." See the note above. Change the room and/or the transducers and all bets are off. Given good quality equipment designed to reproduce the recorded signal as accurately as possible, I think you can change many components around and get virtually identical sound.

Tim
 
Expectation Bias- Do not the measurements cause you to expect the system to sound a certain way.? If you listened first you would not have measurement bias.

Thus the value of listening when possible with knowledge removed ...

And to answer yor question Not necessarily .. I am in the camp that current measurements do not tell all the story, just part of it ... So I look at measurements for gross anomalies .. Amp which are 3 db at 30 Hz speakers with tortuous anechoic Responses, etc If a speaker is 20 dB down at 40 Hz there is no way it can reproduce the Saint Saens Organ Symphony well .. No listening needed ...

I asked this question in another thread but it bears to repeat it: .. How is progress measured in High End Audio if there is NO objective reference? I would posit tha the progress we see in vide ois due to the adherence to standards , to measurements .. seems such is needed in Audio because the way I would construct these thinking is that there is no way we will have better systems, yet we do and we have ...
 
Mep (is it Mark? I like that better than mep), I agree with most of that. Even, if not especially, the part that applies to my system -- it leaves most of what lies below 40hz off the table and is, therefore, compromised. I do care about that last octave, but not enough to take over a larger room in the house to get it.

Just two points I'd take exception to:



We can certainly know how faithful our systems are to the recorded signal, and that is the source recording, not something that happened in the studio before it was recorded, mixed and mastered. And before we get speakers and rooms, our systems can be very faithful to the recorded signal.



This one depends on what you're calling "the system." See the note above. Change the room and/or the transducers and all bets are off. Given good quality equipment designed to reproduce the recorded signal as accurately as possible, I think you can change many components around and get virtually identical sound.

Tim

Tim-MEP=Mark and by all means call me Mark if that is what you prefer. Some of the statements I made were deducements from what others have posted here. When I made the statement that says no two systems sound the same, that was predicated upon no two people have the exact same systems or rooms so every system will sound different from one to another. It is even probable that two exact systems placed in two different rooms won't sound quite the same which is pretty much in agreement with what you said.
 

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