Truth and Tonality: can they co-exist?

tony ky ma

Industry Expert
Aug 21, 2010
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No Bill I don't have any information about the wow and flutter that my turntable produces. Furthermore, I don't care because I don't hear it. I have a 30 lb platter that has had the run-out measured and the run-out adjusted (which the VPI TNT platter has adjustements for). My bearing has had new much tighter tolerance bushings machined and pressed in by a master machinist and my spindle has been micro-polished by said machinist. My TNT table sits on the TNT stand which has lead shot in the four legs. The motor is controlled by the SDS and the speed is set and checked with a strobe disc and light. I just don't hear any problems with wow and flutter. If I did, I'd buy a better turntable.

For those of you who hate all things analog-I get it and I for one am not trying to make converts out of any of you. Digital measures much better and it's a snap to use. You can buy a $20 DVD/CD player that will have better measurements than the most expensive analog rig could ever hope for. I'm sure some of you would even argue that a $20 CD player will sound better than a $100K turntable setup because it measures better. There is plenty of room in this hobby for all types of belief systems. As long as you are happy with the sound you are hearing, that's all that matters.

Mep, I don't think to-day's high end TT has the wow and flutter list in their catalog anymore, because hard to measure out only those old style auto return or multi disk auto play need to tell. but even without problems in wow and flutter, still can hear sound quality change in different driving motors and belts ( my favor is elastic thread ) too
tony ma
 

Old Listener

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Jul 18, 2010
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Tim-I understand your view points and I totally accept that you gave up analog for digital because to you (and many others), digital clearly sounds better. I'm fine with that and I accept that. The flip side of your viewpoint is that numerous people have made it quite clear they gave up on analog simply because it has zero convenience associated with it and it gets in the way of them being able to listen to music at the push of a button. There is truly something for everyone in this hobby.

Several people have commented that they like the new functionality and convenience that digital brings. That isn't the same as saying that that was their only reason for liking digital playback. You are misinterpreting what they said to serve your agenda.

mep, can you write one post in this thread without trying to dismiss the honest opinions that other people have expressed? Can you meet facts and a reasoned argument with your own reasoned argument based on facts? If you can't respect other people, start a different thread where you can proclaim the superiority of analog playback without other views getting in your way.

Bill
 

fas42

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If you can't respect other people, start a different thread where you can proclaim the superiority of analog playback without other views getting in your way.
Please, Bill, can you just check on the definition of a dialectic, in the forum header ...

So far I think we are doing reasonably okay with this dialectic thing ...:):):)

Frank
 

Old Listener

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Please, Bill, can you just check on the definition of a dialectic, in the forum header ...

I don't think you fully understand the idea of a dialectic. There should be room for people to offer their opinions and make reasoned arguments without having those contributions dismissed as mep continues to do.

> So far I think we are doing reasonably okay with this dialectic thing ...

I don't think that you are doing well at all. Amir made a very mild comment to rein mep in. mep continued in the same vein and Tim made a mild comment about his behavior. mep still continues to mis-characterize other people posts. Enough is enough.

Bill
 

fas42

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Bill,

mep's last comment was:

I understand your view points and I totally accept that you gave up analog for digital because to you (and many others), digital clearly sounds better. I'm fine with that and I accept that. The flip side of your viewpoint is that numerous people have made it quite clear they gave up on analog simply because it has zero convenience associated with it and it gets in the way of them being able to listen to music at the push of a button. There is truly something for everyone in this hobby.
I find his comments there perfectly reasonable. Is there something in that that you still find unacceptable?

Frank
 

microstrip

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May 30, 2010
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False characterization. Do we enjoy the convenience? Of course. But I don't think you'll find any digital proponents in this dialectic who abandoned their turntables for convenience alone. Quite the opposite. If I thought vinyl sounded better, I would have kept my turntable and my album collection for my best quality listening sessions and used digital for casual, convenient and portable listening. Just like so many vinyl users here do.
Tim

Tim,

Different people, different stories.

I have abandoned vinyl for some years, but happily never sold my vinyl collection, and came back several years later. Several of my friends abandoned it just for convenience, and openly regret it now.

My love for vinyl is a preference. If I could have a decent price CD player that could make my Sergeant Pepper's CD sound as good as my Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab LP copy, I would surely buy it and start listening to the digital version.

BTW, I am sober - I have been listening only to CDs for the last seven days.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Tim, would you care to elaborate ...

Frank

We have nearly 100 years of analog audio reproduction. We have had pretty comprehensive measurements of its noise, distortions, dynamics and frequency response for a good 50 years. Those measurements, and a few disciplined, statistically sound and strenuously denied blind AB/X listening tests represent all of the objective data that could be entered into evidence in this discussion, and more than half the people in the discussion prefer to believe in sighted listening and that which cannot be measured. It's like trying to convince a Catholic (no offense meant, I am one) that Mary was not a virgin. All of the scientific evidence in history will have no effect. An army of gynecologists could not convince the true believer. Joseph's testimonial of a great night of lovemaking wouldn't move the bar. The discussion is utterly futile. We cannot have a dialectic because there is no real chance of anyone learning anything. Those of us on this side could, of course push the data aside and say, ok, fine, this doesn't really mean anything, but we still like the sound of digital media better. And then we'd just have to agree to disagree. Still no dialectic.

And yes, I know this thread is about truth and tonality, not vinyl and digital. But surely we all knew it would go there. Next up? Solid state and tubes? Truth and tonality. A rose by any other name...

Tim
 

fas42

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And then we'd just have to agree to disagree. Still no dialectic.
From Gary's definition: "An important characteristic of a dialectic is the ability to put up with contradictions - that there can be opposite viewpoints which are equally valid"

And yes, I know this thread is about truth and tonality, not vinyl and digital. But surely we all knew it would go there.
But we are trying very, very, very hard NOT to go there, aren't we ...:eek::eek::eek:

On a personal note: the last high end vinyl/tubes experience for me was hard going, treble ripping several layers from my ear drums. People may say tonality lives in that camp, but for me it's the end result that counts ...

Frank
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Tim,

Different people, different stories.

I have abandoned vinyl for some years, but happily never sold my vinyl collection, and came back several years later. Several of my friends abandoned it just for convenience, and openly regret it now.

My love for vinyl is a preference. If I could have a decent price CD player that could make my Sergeant Pepper's CD sound as good as my Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab LP copy, I would surely buy it and start listening to the digital version.

BTW, I am sober - I have been listening only to CDs for the last seven days.

I'd like to hear it. I have a heavy, white vinyl copy of the white album that had only been played once since I bought it. I took it over to the house of a friend who has a crushingly expensive vinyl rig and played it for the second time. I honestly prefer my digital copy of the remaster.

Different people, different stories.

Tim
 

Gregadd

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Apr 20, 2010
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You preach not to settle the issue but to get a few converts.
 

mep

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Tim-would that be the German DMM copy of the White Album? I had that too and it sucked. The bass was way overblown and it just wasn't very good overall. I sold my copy to another Beatle freak. The EMI Parlaphone version is still the best I've heard and I have all of the digital versions including the USB Apple.
 

fas42

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a few disciplined, statistically sound and strenuously denied blind AB/X listening tests
This is frequently touted, but for me the significant comment was made by Martin Colloms, considered by many to be a reasonable authority, who after being involved in such a session, remarked that the drop in quality caused by the addition of the AB/X circuitry comprehensively diluted the ability and chance to discern significant results.

Other thoughts ...?

Frank
 

Phelonious Ponk

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You preach not to settle the issue but to get a few converts.

The whole point of a dialectic is to get a few converts, Greg, but I'm the one who thinks we're not in one.

Dialectic (also called dialectics or the dialectical method) is a method of argument, which has been central to both Indic and Western philosophy since ancient times. The word "dialectic" originates in Ancient Greece, and was made popular by Plato in his Socratic dialogues. Dialectic is based on a dialogue between two or more people who may hold differing views, yet wish to seek the truth of the matter through the exchange of their viewpoints while applying reason.

I honestly don't want anyone here to abandon their vinyl if they enjoy it. I do, however, grow very weary of being told I lack experience or ears or the perspective of a serious listener instead of a chart reader every time I attempt to add reason to the exchange of viewpoints.

Tim
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Tim-would that be the German DMM copy of the White Album? I had that too and it sucked. The bass was way overblown and it just wasn't very good overall. I sold my copy to another Beatle freak. The EMI Parlaphone version is still the best I've heard and I have all of the digital versions including the USB Apple.

No, it's Capitol/EMI.

Tim
 

Phelonious Ponk

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and


So which is correct, Tim ...??

Frank

Both, I think. If you have two opposing views and you're seeking the truth, if you find it, there are going to be a few converts.

Tim
 

Gregadd

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Of course one has to rebut the argument presented. To ignore a point is to concede it.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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This is frequently touted, but for me the significant comment was made by Martin Colloms, considered by many to be a reasonable authority, who after being involved in such a session, remarked that the drop in quality caused by the addition of the AB/X circuitry comprehensively diluted the ability and chance to discern significant results.

Other thoughts ...?

Frank

And I would bet significant money that in a blind AB/X test, Colloms couldn't consistently tell when the circuitry was in the loop.

Tim
 

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