Truth and Tonality: can they co-exist?

Phelonious Ponk

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I'm serious.

If someone cannot mention a component or speaker that is accurate and neutral, then can someone name a transitor, tube, cone, or piece of wire that has no color?

I could name many components that are essentially neutral, but it would probably be a waste of time, as the only evidence of their neutrality that I would have beyond what I hear vs. what you hear, would be measurement, and you simply would conclude that it is inadequate.

That's unfair. I didn't give you a chance. Here's one example:


Tim
 

Robert

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Nov 10, 2010
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I could name many components that are essentially neutral, but it would probably be a waste of time, as the only evidence of their neutrality that I would have beyond what I hear vs. what you hear, would be measurement, and you simply would conclude that it is inadequate.

Tim

Tim, You've made about 20% of the posts to this thread, and have been saying the same thing over and over. Now, you are concerned about wasting time?

And then you say that you can name plenty, but don't feel like it?

Please, tell us what components measure neutral. How do you know what I would conclude?
 

mep

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Tim-I think you and I are more in agreement on the value of measurements than maybe you realize. On another post somewhere, you talked of sometimes buying components sight and sound unheard because you had reviewed their measurements/specifications and thought they would fit the bill. However, you went on to state that you only buy those components from businesses that have a liberal return policy so you can get your money back if you don't like the way they sound in your system. You then went on to say that you have sent numerous pieces packing because you didn't like the way they sounded. So, you made my point for me. You can read specs and measurement reports all day and be happy with what the figures tell you. But, until you HEAR it for yourself, all bets are off. I rest my case.
 

Gregadd

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It's not a new argument at all. Whenever anyone takes the position that their source, amp, system, etc, is more natural, more life-like, more musical than equipment that measurably and objectively performs much better, they are making that argument. It is an argument made on audiophile forums daily.

Tim
Okay you win. It's all the same old refrain with no more weight given no mattter how often it's repeated.
 

amirm

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If we agree that by definition we can never know what the artist heard at the time of recording, we are left with one thing: which system sound pretty :). OK, I am half serious. I wonder if we can define pretty. Can we agree at least to the level that a supermodel is pretty?
 

mep

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Amir-The first person that invents the Sound Quality 2000 MKII meter will be a genius and a zillionaire. You just plug your item under test into it and watch the meter move from the bottom of the "crap" scale to hopefully the "couldn't sound better" part of the scale and you know if you have succeeded in your design or purchase decision.
 

fas42

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What I am trying to say that none of us who sit there in front of our system and listens can tell whether it is the truth without having been in the studio
I think there is still a bit of confusion here, Gary. I am entirely discounting the event in the studio as the truth, the truth is the event on the disk, say seen as a WAV file. I could use highly sophisticated software to pull that event to pieces every which way, it would be able to tell me the truth to any level of precision I want. How THAT truth is sent to, and interpreted by the ear/brain is the core issue, I feel.

"You want the truth ?? You can't HANDLE the truth!!"

It had to be said ...

Frank
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Okay, Tim, could you throw in some actual figures now, as a starting point, which to you would be sufficient for you to claim the components as being neutral, or "accurate"?

Frank

Look up. I edited that post while all of you were responding.

Tim
 

mep

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Tim-I have printed graphs that came with my phono cartridges that look better than the measurements you posted for the Benchmark DAC. The ones that came with my cartridges look like they were drawn with a ruler. Can you believe that?
 

amirm

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Tim-I have printed graphs that came with my phono cartridges that look better than the measurements you posted for the Benchmark DAC. The ones that came with my cartridges look like they were drawn with a ruler. Can you believe that?
Can you post them? I love to see the response including channel separation.
 

mep

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Amir-I will try and take a picture of the ones I have on hand and post them tomorrow. I probably should have said "have had," because I know I have had some that were ruler flat. I will put my hands on my Denon 103R and Benz Glider SL graphs and try and capture a photo of them. I don't even remember taking a look at either one of these because I take them with a grain of salt, but I suspect they will be pretty flat. We will see.
 

amirm

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Thanks Mark. Courtesy of Internet search, you don't need to take the pictures :). Here is the graph as provided by Denon:



Pretty impressive indeed.

This is what someone measured under the same conditions: http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=vinyl&m=749693



So seems like Denon's graph is not quite replicated. Still not bad on the response front. On crosstalk though, as expected it doesn't hold a candle to digital.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Tim-I have printed graphs that came with my phono cartridges that look better than the measurements you posted for the Benchmark DAC. The ones that came with my cartridges look like they were drawn with a ruler. Can you believe that?

Those measurements didn't come with a Benchmark DAC, and they weren't made by Benchmark. I don't own a Benchmark DAC. Those measurements came from an independent review. Stereo Review, to be exact. Don't like that one? Give these a shot:

http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/dac/dac1/reviews

Most of these reviewers didn't measure, as, like many audiophiles, they don't seem to believe in measurement. But a couple of them measured very thoroughly. What it shows, though I don't expect it to be accepted by everyone here, is that component neutrality can not only be achieved, it can be achieved for thousands of dollars less than the cost of many similar "high end" components.

Okay, so how do you feel about distortion figures then, are they relevant to any degree?

They're very relevant. Read the reviews. I think you'll find pretty comprehensive measurements in the reviews by The Audio Critic and Stereo Review. I haven't read them all, but I expect most of the rest are based solely on subjective listening if you trust that better.

I'm not endorsing the Benchmark. I don't own one and don't care if you prefer a digital to analog converter with a tube output section. But the Benchmark is a pretty good example of a neutral component. Even the DAC1 Pre, with its preamp and headphone amp is essentially dead flat.

Tim
 

fas42

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They're very relevant. Read the reviews. I think you'll find pretty comprehensive measurements in the reviews by The Audio Critic and Stereo Review.
If relevant, we come back to numbers again. What distortion figures, under what circumstances, will ensure the component is neutral, accurate, truthful? If we can't provide meaningful figures here then I suspect we are still flying in the dark ...

Frank
 

JackD201

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Doesn't anybody find it the slightest bit odd that when discussions such as this occur, everything is traced back to either the musician or the engineer? I certainly do since the logical thing would be to trace it back to the sheet music or the improvisor. Granted that quite a few of these composers have passed on, but it is the sheet music that will always remain as the closest link to what happened in their minds.

It says what instrument to play, what note, when to play it and how hard or soft to play it. Musicians aren't machines and neither are conductors, band leaders or producers. One take will be different from the next. So what truth are we talking about when here can be an infinite number of interpretations even before the music is recorded?

The best that can be hoped for is that every note is played and that every note is heard, be it singly or as part of a chord or even just a bed. Tonality is only a part of the sound envelope and ideally, note just the tonality but all aspects of the envelope be played and heard. In my mind, if distortions hamper this, be it electrical, mechanical, thermal or acoustical then the distortions should be brought at the very least to a level that makes them as benign as possible.
 

fas42

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You got problems with spectrum analyzers and tracking generators? Multi tone burst generators, etc.. We are moving atoms around and lining them up to print out IBM, and you think we dont' know what to measure! Audio engineers left THD and simple IMD twenty years ago.
Tom, this is in the context of trying to determine what criteria should be used to saying that a component is neutral, or truthful. Tim stated:
I could name many components that are essentially neutral, but it would probably be a waste of time, as the only evidence of their neutrality that I would have beyond what I hear vs. what you hear, would be measurement, and you simply would conclude that it is inadequate.

That's unfair. I didn't give you a chance. Here's one example:

... which was a largely flat frequency response. I asked and he agreed that distortion measurements are also part of the equation, so in that context I am seeking to reach some sort of agreement as to what is an acceptable distortion level for a component or system, for it to be truthful, in this context of a dialectic of truth versus tonality.

Frank
 

fas42

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So what truth are we talking about when here can be an infinite number of interpretations even before the music is recorded?
We are talking about one particular recording of a particular musical event; the truth that is the waveform that is engraved on the vinyl, the bits of a CD, etc.

In my mind, if distortions hamper this, be it electrical, mechanical, thermal or acoustical then the distortions should be brought at the very least to a level that makes them as benign as possible.
Agreed.

Frank
 

JackD201

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You'd have to make that individual LP's, CD's, Files or Tapes because if we're talking absolute truths, we must recognize that one copy can differ from another in sometimes great ways. The mediums alone already contain distortions. By the time these things get into our hands, from the OP's point of view it can be said that the deviations from the "event" may be to such an extent that truth has been lost.
 

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