Truth and Tonality: can they co-exist?

fas42 said:

I find his comments there perfectly reasonable. Is there something in that that you still find unacceptable?

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I thought my earlier post was quite clear. I'll try again.

After mep characterized Amir as a digital couch potato, amir replied

"Let's not characterize each other please. We don't like digital because we are lazy. We like it because we are smart!!! We like it because we love music and can get so much more of it by having instant access. When I buy a CD, it is rare that every track is good. Digital lets me skip over instantly to something else I like. I am not a slave to the equipment. The equipment is a slave to me. As it should."

After another round from mep, Tim said

"False characterization. Do we enjoy the convenience? Of course. But I don't think you'll find any digital proponents in this dialectic who abandoned their turntables for convenience alone. Quite the opposite. If I thought vinyl sounded better, I would have kept my turntable and my album collection for my best quality listening sessions and used digital for casual, convenient and portable listening. Just like so many vinyl users here do."

mep replied to each of those posts. Having read each person's objection to his characterization of them, he then said

"The flip side of your viewpoint is that numerous people have made it quite clear they gave up on analog simply because it has zero convenience associated with it and it gets in the way of them being able to listen to music at the push of a button. "

So who are these people who gave up on LPs "simply because it has zero convenience"? Certainly not Amir or Tim. Certainly not me. Where are the posts where these people made it "quite clear" why they gave up on analog? I scanned this whole thread and I didn't find any posts that fit mep's claim.

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I have read a number of posts by mep in this thread that I felt mis-characterized what other people had said. I had refrained from commenting this last post. Here is a sample of mep's posts in this thread:

"Out of all the measurements that people who love measurements use to discredit analog over their precious digital,"

"we have had the "convenience" discussion before and analog is not for the digital couch potatoes. I agree 1000x over that digital is much more convenient than analog. Digital has now approached the stage that it takes very little user involvement in order to access and play your music library. And for some if not many, that puts them in the land of milk and honey. I can't believe there are now services for the digital couch potatoes who can't be bothered to rip their own music collections and the service does it for them. The next step on the digital horizon will be an intuitive interaction between you and your digital file server. You will just have to think of a song and it will start to play. Or it will read your mind when you enter the room and figure out what you’re in the mood for and start its own song list for you. Man, wouldn't that be something?"

"As long as the measurements show no apparent flaws, they leave you clueless as to how something will sound in your house. Even Tim who has never seen a measurement that he didn't like has had to return products that he bought based on their measurements/specifications because they didn't sound good in his home."

"Sometimes I forget that you are listening through a $150 Pioneer receiver and I need to keep that in mind in order to put your comments in perspective."
[ Ethan mostly commented about theory, experiment and measurement. That information doesn't depend on the price of your gear.]

"For those of you who hate all things analog-I get it and I for one am not trying to make converts out of any of you."

"I am just personally tired of someone always saying that everything we needed to know about measuring audio has been known for 50 years and if we don't understand that we are thick."

"And I would submit that most people who did sell their tables and record collections off never had a really good table/arm/cartridge in the first place. And the few that did, I bet there are some that have some regrets and wish they had it back."

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Now, perhaps you can convince me that mep's posts are in the spirit of a dialectic. Sounds like a crusade to me.

This thread was supposed to be about truth and tonality. It got hijacked to be yet another "analog is best" crusade.

Bill

Phelonious Ponk said:

No, it's Capitol/EMI.

Tim

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Didn't know that Capitol ever put out a version of the White Album on white vinyl. I have only seen the German DMM (Direct Metal Mastering) version. Interesting. I never cared for any of the Capitol pressings of Beatle LPs.

Gregadd said:

Of course one has to rebut the argument presented. To ignore a point is to concede it.

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Yes, but "you can't hear," you haven't heard anything good" and "you listen to charts, not music" is the rebuttal equivalent of nanny nanny boo boo. If you haven't a better argument than that, concession might be the right choice.

Tim

fas42 said:

In other words, you're saying he couldn't pick when a very high grade amplifier had its signal passed through some type of switching mechanism, versus that switching mechanism not being there?

(In 1987 he was involved in comparing different types and brands of 100 ohm resistors being used to load an MC cartridge, and had no problem in differentiating the higher from lower quality ...)

Frank

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Blind? Resistors up to spec? Point me to that study. I have serious doubts.

Tim

fas42 said:

I am not saying that everything posted has been in that spirit, but the key thing is that when the thread is derailed is to to get it back on track again. mep's post that I quoted indicated that he was happy to go that way, and as far as I am concerned that's all that counts. We are trying to reach some level of understanding on the matter, so the key thing is not to allow little detours and diversions, etc, distract us from the main thrust of this discussion/dialectic.

And that includes White Albums!!

Frank

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That sounds good, Frank. Point us in the right direction. We have the different viewpoints part down cold. How do you suggest we seek the truth of the matter, or apply reason without agreeing on metrics? What data can be brought into the discussion to raise it above simple subjective disagreement?

Tim

Bill-what did I say that wasn't true? If you can find an example of where I put words in someone's mouth, do tell. Amir has said on more than one occaison that he would never go back to listening to LPs because of the lack of convenience. And Amir, if I mistated what you said, please chime in. Amir's bone with me was that I called digital lovers digital couch potatoes. Amir has said that being lazy has nothing to do with it, he just wants his musical library at his finger tips and have the ability to select and skip songs whenever he wants. I get that. How many times have I said that I'm not trying to convert anyone?

As for measurements, I'm reminded of the preacher that was trying to explain to his congregation the difference between things you know and things you believe. The preacher said, "Take John and Mary sitting there in the first pew with their 5 beautiful chillren. Now Mary knows those are her 5 children as she gave birth to each and every one of them. Now John, he has to believe." You can look at measurements and believe in them. You won't know until you hear something.

fas42 said:

Piece de Resistance: HiFiNews, June '87, p.33

Frank

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I don't have a copy of that one laying around, I'm afraid.

Tim

You haven't responded to my comment about susceptibility to interference yet: if the person in the next room is using an arc welder, would you be positive that your well measuring gear would be totally immune to its presence?

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No, but I would absolutely confident that the difference in the noise floor with and without the arc welder could be measured.

Tim

Michael Fremer-THE HUMAN EAR IS FAR SUPERIOR TO ANY MEASUREMENT DEVICE IN DETERMINING THE TOTALITY OF WHAT'S HEARD.

mep said:

And Amir, if I mistated what you said, please chime in. Amir's bone with me was that I called digital lovers digital couch potatoes. Amir has said that being lazy has nothing to do with it, he just wants his musical library at his finger tips and have the ability to select and skip songs whenever he wants. I get that. How many times have I said that I'm not trying to convert anyone?

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I have to disagree with everything you are saying . I was clear about my objection: talk about audio not the poster (me). Talking about me is of little interest to anyone unless they want me for dinner . Talk about audio and all the members have interest.

Second, I didn't say I "just want" my music library at my fingertips. I said that was an enormous bonus. It is not the cause but the effect. You can't turn these two backward and expect it to be a truism.

And saying you don't want to convert anyone is not the same as not doing it . We read your entire posts, not that line.

Putting my moderator hat on: I hope we are done with this line of back and forth. Please focus on bringing new information to the discussion that is devoid of characterizing people.

Gregadd said:

Michael Fremer-THE HUMAN EAR IS FAR SUPERIOR TO ANY MEASUREMENT DEVICE IN DETERMINING THE TOTALITY OF WHAT'S HEARD.

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That is extremely true. Unfortunately, it is also extremely true that it can be as deaf as a tree stomp at times or else, a 128 K MP3, representing just 9% of the audio samples, cannot possibly sound so close to the original!!!

The entire science of perceptual coding (compressing music) is around all the things the ear can't hear. If there is a loud fire siren, can you hear your computer fan? No. Can you measure it. Yes. So the ear in this respect is far less superior to an instrument.

Net, net, neither extreme is right in some of this.

Can I state the obvious . If the ear can't hear it then what is the relevance. Measuring it is but an academic exercise. Hence the point -totality of the circumstances. BTW I would suggest the ear/brain thinks the siren is more important. What would the mother of a new born infant hear? Her baby whimpering or the siren?