The Digital/Analog Dialectic

SeattleJazz

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Fork just added an interesting observation: "My subjective impression from the listening session is the vinyl was slightly more lively and more dynamic in the far outer reaches." During the listening session after the first 4 or so selections were played it occurred to me that what I was treating as increased resolution in the form of leading edges and slightly more resolution to voices in particular and using that to identify "digital" sound was leading me to mark the selection as digital rather than vinyl direct. Don't know if this observation increased my "correct" choices of A or B in the remaining selections or not (Gary knows). I had heard several of the selections at Genesis World Headquarters prior to this night but, honestly, was not paying attention to the differences between analog direct and the A/D/A loop but hearing resolution on the music I had never heard before on several selections heard over the years. In addition, in that session Bruce helped me do a better job of focusing on one or two parts of the music to compare. Again, it all came down to enjoying the music and the company of fellow audiophile NUTs last Thursday evening!

Under "of course it is raining" Seattle skies, Gill
 

garylkoh

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While we can't say for sure whether the few semi-trained ears did better because of training or guessing, if you test 100 tracks with the most keen listeners in our club, Gary and Bruce, they would guess all of them correctly (possibly with 1,000 tracks). There's absolutely a difference, but as several people have pointed out, the results show that for the vast majority of us, it's not a big deal.

I wouldn't want to take that bet - it's far too tiring, and most of the time I'm enjoying the music too much. Another problem I've found with small, subtle differences is that the brain learns to ignore the difference if the difference does not detract from the pleasurable sensation. How I came about is that I was doing some ABX testing with Foobar. On music that I liked, after the 3rd go-round on a 20 sample test, my correct score came down to essentially guessing. The more I liked the music, the faster my ability to discern differences went down. On music I did not like, at the 3rd go-round I got a better score. As a result, I've been using music I don't like to support my design efforts.

Again - nothing scientific about this, and treat as anecdotal evidence only.

I'm willing to go along with the "both are winners theme", which many have adopted (I did say I thought the vinyl sounded better), however, in my mind digital was a big winner and analog was a little winner. Digital has just finished taking the CD player down the path of the 8-track.

It isn't that digital could exceed analog - it's that digital can transparently record the analog since the microphone is analog in the first place. After this session, I am now far more willing to accept that an all-digital recording chain (except for the microphone.... or are there digital microphones???) is able to capture every nuance of the musical performance.

Let's put this in a real-world perspective. The Burmester phono stage was $35k. I believe Gary said the Roksan turntable is $40k and I'm sure that doesn't include the cartridge. Now take a more common, stock, turntable setup...let's say a Linn (a fine piece of equipment) and try to make it sound as good as Gary's turntable (I expect even he can't do that). How would the digital have fared if we moved from the $3k Weiss DAC (albeit modified) and used the $20k model, then eleminated the A/D processing that was necessary for the demonstration?

The Burmester phono stage starts at $14k and then goes up to $22k with the dual MM/MC inputs and the built-in ADC. The turntable with arm and cartridge is around $16k.

We've heard a huge improvent when comparing Redbook to high-res 24/192 (32/384 should blow that out of the water). During the demonstration we were listening at (24/96). As better processors and higher resolution source files come along, I have no doubt we will reach a new level of listening nirvana in Digital, at least with our Lady GaGa and Justin Bieber collections.

I hear the beginnings of another listening session...... when comparing redbook to high-res....... That is another smelly kettle of fish because I haven't found a DAC that sounded the same at multiples of 44.1kHz and multiples of 48kHz yet.
 

garylkoh

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Fork just added an interesting observation: "My subjective impression from the listening session is the vinyl was slightly more lively and more dynamic in the far outer reaches." During the listening session after the first 4 or so selections were played it occurred to me that what I was treating as increased resolution in the form of leading edges and slightly more resolution to voices in particular and using that to identify "digital" sound was leading me to mark the selection as digital rather than vinyl direct. Don't know if this observation increased my "correct" choices of A or B in the remaining selections or not (Gary knows). I had heard several of the selections at Genesis World Headquarters prior to this night but, honestly, was not paying attention to the differences between analog direct and the A/D/A loop but hearing resolution on the music I had never heard before on several selections heard over the years. In addition, in that session Bruce helped me do a better job of focusing on one or two parts of the music to compare. Again, it all came down to enjoying the music and the company of fellow audiophile NUTs last Thursday evening!

Under "of course it is raining" Seattle skies, Gill

That's interesting Gill..... you got the first 4 completely wrong, and then after your Eureka moment, you got the next 7 correct..... So you're saying that you heard the difference, assigned the wrong "answer" the first 4 times. This means that you got a perfect score 11/11!!

Goes to show how good Bruce's training was. Looks like you'll never be happy with digital :D
 

Bruce B

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garylkoh

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Here's one more interesting result.

Cut 4 that we played that night was the Oscar Peterson Trio Nigerian Marketplace. This is a live recording with lots of ambiance, detail, and absolutely fabulous performance. It was recorded at the 1981 Montreaux Jazz Festival. It seems that Herbie Hancock was waiting in the wings to come on, and as a result, Peterson played his heart out. The track I played, Nancy with the Laughing Face I thought was one of the most energetic on the album. What was really interesting is that this is 1981, and it was recorded in digital.

Out of the nine responses for this cut, 6 got it correct, and 8 got it wrong. 5 participants thought that they heard a difference, 4 thought that they didn't. Nobody commented that it sounded "digital" despite this being very early digital technology. I thought that the cymbals and bass was just as expressive and resolved as the very next cut - which was an all-analog direct to disc.
 

garylkoh

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At $8,000 I guess you won't be seeing many of these in the studio any time soon.... however, it's still an analog microphone. It just has a built-in A-D.

Do you have one? I'd love to use it to record someone playing a drum kit and play it back.... and then compare to an all-analog tape-based recording chain using the closest equivalent mic.

That would be the real test of analog vs digital :D
 

fas42

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Do you mean recording the LP with a reel to reel or inserting the A/D/A loop? If the latter, we'll have to find a tape deck with a built-in ADC. Otherwise, it will be comparing one interconnect to two interconnects plus a A/D/A loop. Then we'll get into a cable food fight
No, use prime quality tape recordings as the source, tape equivalents of the Casino Royale LP, and adding the A/D/A loop. Yes, there would be a problem with the A/D converter, a decent tape deck won't have that built-in of course, which is something I didn't think of when doing the post.

There has to be something done about this absurd silliness of cable selection and connectors between components, it just makes the hobby look so ridiculous to outsiders! Frankly, just hard wire an excellent A/D unit to the insides of the tape deck, and stick the A/D box inside the R2R case. Then we can just pretend the tape deck came with the A/D included, just like the Burmester phono!! :D:D

Frank
 

fas42

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Frank, don't you sleep??
The excitement of dealing with all you fabulous people just keeps me going and going ...:D:D:D

No, sleep definitely figures in my lifestyle! I have been fooling with computer gear for nigh on 35 years, so when twiddling my thumbs I just naturally gravitate to a keyboard. TV and video doesn't cut it for me, unless it's a good doco or news analysis. And inbetween I keep kicking and goading my ramshackle system, to get it to behave itself.

As I have said many times, when a system works properly it sounds good anywhere in the house, including at the other end of it, which exactly where I am now, at the keyboard. So, if I get the original Glen Miller recordings running at full blast, and it sounds the real deal from where I am now, then I feel in good shape, no sleep required ...:)

Frank
 

garylkoh

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As I have said many times, when a system works properly it sounds good anywhere in the house, including at the other end of it, which exactly where I am now, at the keyboard. So, if I get the original Glen Miller recordings running at full blast, and it sounds the real deal from where I am now, then I feel in good shape, no sleep required ...:)

Frank

Ha! I used to be like that before I got sucked into the industry. Be careful of what you say, because there are members here who will take you to task for that statement.

Australia holds a special place in my heart because I used to own a vineyard in WA (almost exactly between Margaret River and Swan Valley) and I was going to live there..... until I couldn't get the pair of speakers I wanted!!
 

Phelonious Ponk

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I hear the beginnings of another listening session...... when comparing redbook to high-res....... That is another smelly kettle of fish because I haven't found a DAC that sounded the same at multiples of 44.1kHz and multiples of 48kHz yet.

This one has been done -- https://secure.aes.org/forum/pubs/journal/?ID=2

Of course it has been strenuously objected to and "debunked," but while it's not a perfect study, it ain't a bad one either. Run it again in an informal session and I suspect you'd get the same result you just got with digtial/analog -- statistically inaudible; insignificant even with wishful thinking. Next time don't throw the variable of "experienced listeners" in there unless you throw it in with equal weight, though, and the wishful thinking will have much softer ground to stand on.

Tim
 

fas42

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used to own a vineyard in WA (almost exactly between Margaret River and Swan Valley) and I was going to live there..... until I couldn't get the pair of speakers I wanted!!
Yes, I've read your story: "... Remington, so I bought the company!" :D My first good analogue experience was via Infinity RS2Bs, heavily tweaked ...

I used to be like that before I got sucked into the industry.
So what on earth do you mean by that?? :)

Frank
 

Jaguar

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Did anyone else see the segment on the PBS Wired Magazine show, a few years ago, when they had a group of veteran recording engineers do a blind test between digital and analog recordings? It was a slightly different exercise than this one, in a studio, but I was surprised that experts couldn't consistently discern between the two.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Did anyone else see the segment on the PBS Wired Magazine show, a few years ago, when they had a group of veteran recording engineers do a blind test between digital and analog recordings? It was a slightly different exercise than this one, in a studio, but I was surprised that experts couldn't consistently discern between the two.

I'm one of the digital proponents, but I'm not at all surprised. Analog recording can be gorgeous. Digital doesn't really show much advantage until you begin to build up layers of complexity. It processes and multi-tracks much cleaner, but on simple recordings, analog, even early analog tape, can be wonderful.

Tim
 

amirm

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Did anyone else see the segment on the PBS Wired Magazine show, a few years ago, when they had a group of veteran recording engineers do a blind test between digital and analog recordings? It was a slightly different exercise than this one, in a studio, but I was surprised that experts couldn't consistently discern between the two.
I had not seen it before but a quick search found it: http://www.pbs.org/kcet/wiredscience/video/212-audio_files.html

It is a worthwhile video to watch even though it often mixes "MP3" with "digital." The results at the end are definitely nice to see and mirror's Gary's test.
 

garylkoh

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This one has been done -- https://secure.aes.org/forum/pubs/journal/?ID=2

Of course it has been strenuously objected to and "debunked," but while it's not a perfect study, it ain't a bad one either. Run it again in an informal session and I suspect you'd get the same result you just got with digtial/analog -- statistically inaudible; insignificant even with wishful thinking. Next time don't throw the variable of "experienced listeners" in there unless you throw it in with equal weight, though, and the wishful thinking will have much softer ground to stand on.

Tim

Thanks, Tim. One less test to do.... although I'm surprised that 16bit vs 24bit would be transparent.

I've done for myself 24bit/48kHz vs 24bit/96kHz and satisfied myself that it's hardly audible except for very specific material.
 

garylkoh

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garylkoh

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I'm one of the digital proponents, but I'm not at all surprised. Analog recording can be gorgeous. Digital doesn't really show much advantage until you begin to build up layers of complexity. It processes and multi-tracks much cleaner, but on simple recordings, analog, even early analog tape, can be wonderful.

Tim

Tim, the results support your thesis - on the solo piano recording, many listeners identified the A/D/A loop inserted. On the far more complex large orchestral, more listeners did not hear a difference. Being an analog proponent, I would have guessed the complete opposite. Except for the Deep Purple track, more listeners correctly identified the A/D/A loop when the music was simpler.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Tim, the results support your thesis - on the solo piano recording, many listeners identified the A/D/A loop inserted. On the far more complex large orchestral, more listeners did not hear a difference. Being an analog proponent, I would have guessed the complete opposite. Except for the Deep Purple track, more listeners correctly identified the A/D/A loop when the music was simpler.

I'm not sure the hypothesis applied to your test, Gary. I'm talking about recordings, not copies or media (maybe I got OT?). Weren't all of the recordings you tested the other night analog?

Tim
 

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