The Digital/Analog Dialectic

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
9,481
17
0
Gary-Hans Theessink is awesome! The cut "Late Last Night" has a huge boogie factor to it. If that song doesn't sound great on your system, it's time to open the windows and doors and start pitching stuff out because your system is hopeless. And I don't even need measurements and graphs to know that.
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
9,481
17
0
Gary-I approve of more than one of your tracks, it's just that Hans Theessink is not an audiophile warhorse or chestnut like Dusty Springfield singing The Look of Love (and yes, I have that too. I have two copies of the Cologems original LP). I think that Hans music is great and it is well-recorded to boot.
 

garylkoh

WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Sep 6, 2010
5,599
225
1,190
Seattle, WA
www.genesisloudspeakers.com
Mark- I was just joking. I wanted to start with an audiophile chestnut, but take people away from listening to just audiophile music. Hans Theessink isn't very well known (I don't think) and I'm hoping to build him a few new fans. I hope that we'll get to the 9th cut - because the original mono recording of Ella&Louis is fabulous, and this is the direct metal mastered re-issue. The last cut is a rare mono Phase 4 pressing.

So much music, so little time :D
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
10,517
1,774
1,850
Metro DC
Gary just to make ke envious .which Genesis speaker will you be using?
 

garylkoh

WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Sep 6, 2010
5,599
225
1,190
Seattle, WA
www.genesisloudspeakers.com
I'm using the club's speaker - because that is the speaker that the members are most familiar with in our acoustic environment - the Genesis 7.1f.

If things goes according to plan, I'll put brief cuts of all the tracks we play up.
 

SeattleJazz

New Member
Jan 27, 2011
8
0
0
Gary-Hans Theessink has proved to be one of my favorite all time artists since hearing him on the Stockfisch sampler last summer and that was "your fault" as well as you used him in one of your demos! Look forward to tomorrow evening. Should be fun and lead to antimated discussion! Then we can inform the world. Heh, heh.

Under clear and cold Seattle skies, Gill

Mark- I was just joking. I wanted to start with an audiophile chestnut, but take people away from listening to just audiophile music. Hans Theessink isn't very well known (I don't think) and I'm hoping to build him a few new fans. I hope that we'll get to the 9th cut - because the original mono recording of Ella&Louis is fabulous, and this is the direct metal mastered re-issue. The last cut is a rare mono Phase 4 pressing.

So much music, so little time :D
 

SeattleJazz

New Member
Jan 27, 2011
8
0
0
WHO WON? Funny enough it was the music! Yes, some of the time we could tell the difference between analog from LPs with the same analog converted A/D and back D/A (I managed a meager 7 out of 11) but the real surprise was "ta da" many of us really didn't care which way we were listening to the music as we were just enjoying the music. Other members of the Pacific Northwest Audio Society will provide us with how many were able to pick one or the other. For me it was just enjoying the music with fellow audiophiles. Actually, the only big surprise to me was when one record was treated with an Acoustic Revive RL-30(hope I have the model # right) LP Demagnetizer and we heard a difference for the positive. Even the digital recorder being used which had registered a channel imbalance prior to the treatment showed equal balance post treatment. Yeah, weird I know but must trust our ears. I'm sure more of those present will offer their views of the event to give an overall perspective of the evening.

Under cold and clear Seattle skies, Gill
 

garylkoh

WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Sep 6, 2010
5,599
225
1,190
Seattle, WA
www.genesisloudspeakers.com
WHO WON? Funny enough it was the music! Yes, some of the time we could tell the difference between analog from LPs with the same analog converted A/D and back D/A (I managed a meager 7 out of 11) but the real surprise was "ta da" many of us really didn't care which way we were listening to the music as we were just enjoying the music. Other members of the Pacific Northwest Audio Society will provide us with how many were able to pick one or the other. For me it was just enjoying the music with fellow audiophiles. Actually, the only big surprise to me was when one record was treated with an Acoustic Revive RL-30(hope I have the model # right) LP Demagnetizer and we heard a difference for the positive. Even the digital recorder being used which had registered a channel imbalance prior to the treatment showed equal balance post treatment. Yeah, weird I know but must trust our ears. I'm sure more of those present will offer their views of the event to give an overall perspective of the evening.

Under cold and clear Seattle skies, Gill

Yeah - that was the wierdest thing. The channels were balanced on the phonostage to +/- 0.1dB. We played a mono LP and there was slight channel imbalance pre-demag that was corrected post-demag. Bruce and I were looking at the meters and it was boggling our minds.

Gill, thanks for the quick report. I'm exhausted - will compile results and write up over the next couple of days.
 

fas42

Addicted To Best
Jan 8, 2011
3,973
3
0
NSW Australia
The channels were balanced on the phonostage to +/- 0.1dB. We played a mono LP and there was slight channel imbalance pre-demag that was corrected post-demag.
Actually, I have noticed this effect at times. At most people now know, my "thing" is eliminating weaknesses, or fine tuning the overall setup. On the way to getting somewhere, hopefully improving the sound, something I have done will cause one channel to perform better, as in playback with less distortion, than the other. I find, and others who happen to be around at the time too, that the ear/brain registers this, and the sound feels as if it is being pulled to one side, the side which is performing LESS well at that moment. The change caused by my interference usually stabilises after a period of time and the image will then properly centre itself.

This has nothing to do with a difference in volume, purely a psychological effect ...

Frank
 
Last edited:

Phelonious Ponk

New Member
Jun 30, 2010
8,677
23
0
but the real surprise was "ta da" many of us really didn't care which way we were listening to the music as we were just enjoying the music.

Everybody won, then.

Tim
 

garylkoh

WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Sep 6, 2010
5,599
225
1,190
Seattle, WA
www.genesisloudspeakers.com
As Tim said, everybody won. We had great attendance - 28 ppl showed up, including some old members that we hadn't seen for a very long time.

We started with two cuts to determine that the system is actually transparent and had not been dumbed down. The better the system IMHO the more of a difference we will all hear with two very similar LPs. So, I played two different pressings of Jazz At The Pawnshop that were very good - the all-white label German Teldec pressing Proprius did in 1992 and the Orange label first pressing done also at Teldec. Since the first reel was supposed to have been lost after the first pressing, we played Side 3 Track 1. I know that there is more difference between the two pressings on Sides 1 and 2.

I believe that everybody in the audience heard the difference, and the difference was remarkable with almost everybody preferring the Orange label.

The audience was handed out a sheet to mark their impressions. Three simple questions were asked:

  1. Did you hear a difference? Yes/No
  2. What difference did you hear? (including your preference)
  3. Did you think A was analog/digital or B was analog/digital

Actually, it wasn't that they were listening to an analog source vs a digital source. What the audience was listening to an analog source (the LP). However, the comparison was between direct from the phono stage to the preamp, and from the phono stage to the preamp through an analog-to-digital-to-analog loop.

We played 11 cuts of music, and at the end of the night, 20 members of the audience handed back their responses. Two of the responses were blank - one said that no difference was heard, the other was too distracted by the great music. Many in the audience gave up after about half-way and just sat back to enjoy the tunes being played.

Some preliminary results:

  1. The respondents explicitly said that they could hear a difference 51 times.
  2. 23 times, the respondents explicitly said that they could NOT hear a difference. (45 times if the two blank sheets were included)
  3. Of all the responses, 87 out of 171 (50.88%) got it correct
  4. The "trained" listeners did comparatively well - 9/11 (88.8%) and 8/11 (72.7%). Both were EXCO members and have heard the system and some of the music numerous times.
  5. When a preference was expressed, 12 respondents expressed a preference for straight-thru, 14 respondents expressed a preference for the A/D/A loop.

More details later.
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
9,481
17
0
The important thing was that everyone had a good time. With all the responses tallied and the results were 50.88% got the correct answers, it's the same as flipping a coin. I don't see that there is anything statistically significant here to learn from.
 

garylkoh

WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Sep 6, 2010
5,599
225
1,190
Seattle, WA
www.genesisloudspeakers.com
The important thing was that everyone had a good time. With all the responses tallied and the results were 50.88% got the correct answers, it's the same as flipping a coin. I don't see that there is anything statistically significant here to learn from.

Mark-what was interesting to me is that there is no statistically significant result. The A/D/A loop is transparent to the vast majority of the listeners in attendance. About the same number of responses preferred straight through and preferred the A/D/A loop (12 vs 14).

I'll go a little deeper into interpretation of some of the responses next week.
 

Bruce B

WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
Apr 25, 2010
7,006
512
1,740
Snohomish, WA
www.pugetsoundstudios.com
I dont know, the trained listeners did pretty well. Maybe he has more to tell us.

Tom

Which comes back to what I said in my thread "The Art of Listening". If you train people what to listen for, the statistics will increase dramatically... and it showed.

During the test session at the EXCO meeting, I was showing people what to listen for. After that, the differences became much more apparent.
 

Ron Party

WBF Founding Member
Apr 30, 2010
2,457
13
0
Oakland, CA
This was a hobbyist study and not anything intended to withstand scientific scrutiny. Having stated this, what stands out so far as others have noted is the difference between trained (2) versus untrained (18) listeners.

Gary, what tracks did you play which comprised the 23 (and 45) reports of no difference? What tracks did you play where the trained listeners did report accurately?
 

fas42

Addicted To Best
Jan 8, 2011
3,973
3
0
NSW Australia
This was a hobbyist study and not anything intended to withstand scientific scrutiny.
But the key thing was that the listeners were audio enthusiasts. As the results indicate, these people as a group found the A/D to D/A addition to the chain transparent. If people who have a vested interest in hearing high quality sound couldn't distinguish the two then the general population will obviously be totally oblivious to any variation!

Yes, trained people could pick it, but that goes for any endeavour. In Australia, our Aborigines have superb eyesight, culturally trained to pick up extremely subtle visual clues in the environment, which is used for tracking animals, and people. This doesn't mean the rest of the population have poor eyesight, just that it is not important or relevant to develop it to that degree ...

Frank
 

Ron Party

WBF Founding Member
Apr 30, 2010
2,457
13
0
Oakland, CA
But the key thing was that the listeners were audio enthusiasts. As the results indicate, these people as a group found the A/D to D/A addition to the chain transparent. If people who have a vested interest in hearing high quality sound couldn't distinguish the two then the general population will obviously be totally oblivious to any variation!
To the extent we can draw any inferences at all, yes, good point.

Gary, a few more questions. Did you perform any sighted tests first? Did you perform any tests where you did not switch at all?
 

TerryO

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2011
7
2
308
To the extent we can draw any inferences at all, yes, good point.

Gary, a few more questions. Did you perform any sighted tests first? Did you perform any tests where you did not switch at all?

Ron,
I'm not Gary, but I was very interested in the testing protocol, as I was rather involved in experimental design some years ago. There were no sighted tests performed. As the source (TT/LP) was the same, only the LED display would have indicated which configuration we were hearing at the time. The equipment was hidden behind an acoustic panel and even then, the gear faced away from the attendees. Whenever a change was requested, Gary made the switch using his remote and changed the display sign that indicated "A" or "B". It was for the listener to decide which (A or B) was analog and which was digital. There were no "double backs" using analog/analog or digital/digital.

Best Regards,
Terry Olson
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing