The Digital/Analog Dialectic

mep

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Well, I don't agree with you and I see that Bruce doesn't either. In your attempt to prevent tape from sounding better than digital, you are going to make tape sound much worse than it should and ruin the test before it started for the reasons I outlined above.
 

Bruce B

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We just received in 15 or so master tapes from a WELL regarded audiophile/recording engineer to do digital transfers for. All of the tapes were recorded so hot we had to attenuate the input signal in our digital converters. They were recorded hot ( I assume) because the quiet passages would have been lost in the noise. When we make tape dubs, strict adherence is made to tape formulation, bias, input levels and such. Never have I made using -10dB peaks as a common practice. That's like recording digitally and only using 16 bits.

RMGI SM900

As you can see, even at +9, the THD is still below 1%
 

rbbert

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Unless the music is very unusual, the energy in the top octave (10k -20k Hz) will be 10-20 dB or more below the 1 kHz level, so you will not be approaching tape saturation if only the midrange levels hit 0 VU.
 

Bruce B

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Well, first of all, if we are going to record to digital that is brick wall input filtered to 20Khz or so, then that means that the third (tape produces third harmonics) of 7Khz will be ignored by the digital input

Why the hell would anyone put a brick filter at 20kHz when recording to digital? When I transfer tapes to digital it's either at 352.8 PCM or DSD128fs
 

SeattleJazz

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The Digital/Analog Dialectic Listening Session

For those of you who are interested in "who" or "what" won I would invite you to the next meeting of the Pacific Northwest Audio Society on Feb. 10th. In the meantime...

First of all, we could not tell any differences in the first 1 1/2 hours. Of course, we were in another room enjoying pizza and solving most of the problems of the world. Then it was time to hit the listening room. In usual approved audiophile "tradition" we sedately wandered into the room-translated this means it was every man for himself to get one of the two primary listening spots. In truth we rotated seating throughout our several hours of "forced" listening.

The system was as Gary listed. The analog output from the turntable (yes, all the listening was done using material off of the turntable-records for you digital geeks) was the sole source. Believe it or not the system was able to resolve all the details of the music being fed into it! My jaw dropped several time when listening to music I've heard many times such as Ella and Louis (one of my favorite albums of all time and listening off of SACD as I type this) and Chris Jones: No Sanctuary Here (Stockfisch SACD here at home) and, of course, Trittico (Dallas Wind Symphony under Frederick Fennell on vinyl here). We could always tell when Gary switched between analog and the analog/digital/analog path.

Was going to say something funny here like "the analog was vastly superior and would have been much improved had a tube based system running through horn speakers been used" but...but...but...hmmm. I find it hard to lie when music is reproduced with such beauty, impact and fidelity to the "original". Use whatever terms you have used over the years. It was a "WOW" experience right up there with a recent listen to MikeL's system. Would have preferred a larger room to flesh out orchestral music but the upcoming listening session at the Audio Society should take care of that.

For the last part of the listening session we used a Korg A/D processor recorder using conversion in large part with DSD128fs. Bruce can chime in here with the details if he'd like. All I can say was this conversion sounded excellent as well. Then Gary said "give me a minute". He went and fetched a different power chord for the Korg. That nailed it. Of course, for those of you who don't believe in power cords making a difference: "It didn't do diddly".

So, there you have my version of "IT". Now for those of you that are able to make it to the next meeting of the Pacific Northwest Audio Society and decide for yourself with your ears. After all that is all that counts to you & me.

Under "snow promised-at least 1/2 inch" Seattle skies, Gill
 

mep

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Gill-Can you clarify if the straight-up analog sounded better and if people could tell whether they were hearing the straight analog or the digital version of the analog? Was there consensus?
 

mep

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I guess I missed when the grand unveiling is supposed to happen Gary.
 

SeattleJazz

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mep, definitely a consensus!

Under grey Seattle skies, Gill


Gill-Can you clarify if the straight-up analog sounded better and if people could tell whether they were hearing the straight analog or the digital version of the analog? Was there consensus?
 

garylkoh

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The listening session last night was held in conjunction with the PNWAS EXCO meeting - so as Gill mentioned, the first 1-1/2 hours was spent listening to the music from an adjourning room and enjoying Stella's Pizza brought in by Jerry. The meeting and listening session was scheduled for 6pm - and as usual, Jerry (our ex-President) turned up a "little" early so that he could get a chance to listen before anyone else turned up - he appeared at 1:30. Then Joe P (also another ex-President of the club) turned up at 4pm. I've never seen so many committee members so eager to solve the world's problems!!

Here are the tired faces of the committee members after the meeting.

In concentration..jpg

Gill was pushed outside the door on the left, and so was Terry Olsen. Their opinions don't count. Terry, in fact, couldn't even register to post on our forum because he is a well-known trouble maker. Terry heads up the club's bi-annual DIY Loudspeaker contest.

From right to left - Bruce B, Joe P, Darrin F (club VP), Willie C (club Treasurer), John S (current President), and Willie's friend. Hopefully, some of these guys will also post their opinions of what they heard.

Here's the system we were listening to:

system..jpg

We finally broke off at almost 10:30, but at the conclusion, we all thought that the next club meeting will be extremely interesting.
 

garylkoh

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I guess I missed when the grand unveiling is supposed to happen Gary.

Sorry, mep. Last night was the preliminary session for the EXCO to work out the kinks, make suggestions, etc. before the actual session that will be held during our usual club meeting on Thur, Feb 10th.
 

mep

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Thanks Gary. I missed the progression dates. How come everyone in the picture looks like they just received a beating?
 

garylkoh

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Thanks Gary. I missed the progression dates. How come everyone in the picture looks like they just received a beating?

We had just finished beating an issue to death - negotiating the renewal of the lease for space for our club meetings.

Bruce was also giving us a lesson in critical listening, and everybody was listening hard when I took that shot. Later on, the mood got a lot lighter - especially after we played Deep Purple, Smoke On the Water LOUD.
 

garylkoh

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I don't know yet what the outcome will be. Since the phono stage can output 24bit in 44.1kHz, 96kHz and 192kHz, I suspect that with certain kinds of music, we might be able to hear some difference.

...........so, if you are going to use 44.1Khz in any part of this test, there is a 22Khz brick wall filter in there. And that is why my previous posts addressed this issue.

Tom

That's true, but I made a mistake - it's a 48kHz sampling rate on the Burmester.

That's a good reminder that we should be carrying out the listening at all the available sampling rates.
 

garylkoh

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The biggie for me is "Lazy", flat chat, the Hammond being given the full Jimi Hendrix treatment, accelerator mashed hard to the floor, beautiful stuff ...

Frank

Yeah! LOUD. It's a good thing that we are in an industrial facility, and all our neighbours had gone for the night.
 

TerryO

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Jan 26, 2011
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The listening session last night was held in conjunction with the PNWAS EXCO meeting - so as Gill mentioned, the first 1-1/2 hours was spent listening to the music from an adjourning room and enjoying Stella's Pizza brought in by Jerry. The meeting and listening session was scheduled for 6pm - and as usual, Jerry (our ex-President) turned up a "little" early so that he could get a chance to listen before anyone else turned up - he appeared at 1:30. Then Joe P (also another ex-President of the club) turned up at 4pm. I've never seen so many committee members so eager to solve the world's problems!!

Here are the tired faces of the committee members after the meeting.

View attachment 1340

Gill was pushed outside the door on the left, and so was Terry Olsen. Their opinions don't count. Terry, in fact, couldn't even register to post on our forum because he is a well-known trouble maker. Terry heads up the club's bi-annual DIY Loudspeaker contest.



We finally broke off at almost 10:30, but at the conclusion, we all thought that the next club meeting will be extremely interesting.

Hi All,

This is my first post to this forum and I'm pretty excited by this coming meeting.
As Gary has mentioned above, my opinion (and Gill's) doesn't count. :^)

I have read the entire thread a couple of times and would like to mention that Gary, nor the "Club" has any agenda attached to this comparison. I believe that every possible precaution (control) that can be reasonably expected, has been taken in order to eliminate bias in the comparisons. However, the truth is that no test is ever perfect and the best that can be learned from any test of this sort is: That under these circumstances, using this equipment, with these settings and playing this music under such and such a protocol, these people could, or could not, reliably hear a difference. Obviously any one time test will fail to provide enough data to reach any definitive conclusions, or to finally put an end to any debate. But, it is certainly a point of departure for hopefully (as Gary has mentioned), a meaningful dialog.

Best Regards,
Terry Olson
 

amirm

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Hi Terry. Welcome to the forum. Great to see that you all appreciate the limits of what can and cannot reasonably be tested/concluded.
 

TerryO

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Hi Terry. Welcome to the forum. Great to see that you all appreciate the limits of what can and cannot reasonably be tested/concluded.

Amirm,

Thank you very much for the welcome.

I believe that tests and comparisons can be an excellent tool, as long as sufficient rigor is exercised and the conclusions are tempered by a realization that if some of the parameters were different, or changed, a comparable outcome shouldn't necessarily be expected. Just the same, I believe that Gary is an intellectually honest person, who has gone to a great deal of trouble and time, to insure that as many variables as possible are eliminated other than the sound of the LP, or it's digital equivalent.

On a lighter note, testing protocols often refer to a "Device Under Test" or DUT, when there is a physical object involved. The present endeavor is obviously not intended to test gear, so if I may suggest (people who know me were probably expecting this) that we henceforth make reference to the "Media Under Test" ( or MUT).

OK, everyone can stop Booing and Hissing, it was only a tentative suggestion. :^)

Best Regards,
Terry Olson
 

garylkoh

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Rounding the final corner...... we are at the home stretch.

Here are the Media Under Test (MUT):

1) Casino Royale - Side 1 Track 2: The Look of Love
2) Hans Theessink, Call Me - Side 1 Track 1: Late Last Night
3) Joe Cocker, Sheffield Steel - Side 2 Track 1: Ruby Lee
4) Oscar Peterson Trio, Nigerian Marketplace - Side 2 Track 1: Nancy with the Laughing Face
5) Les Brown and his Band of Renown, Goes Direct to Disc - Side 2 Track 1: Tickle Toe
6) Minoru Nojima, Nojima Plays Liszt - Side 1 Track 2: la Campanella
7) Gounod, Ballet Music from Faust - the Waltz; Royal Opera House Orchestra, Alexander Gibson cond.
8) Deep Purple, The Mark 2 Purple Singles - Side 1 Track 1: Smoke on the Water (Live)
9) Ella Fitsgerald & Louis Armstrong, Ella & Louis - Side 1 Track 1: Can't We Be Friends?
10) Hugh Masekela, Hope - Side 4 Track 1: Stimela
11) Edmundo Ros, Heath vs Ros Round 2 - Side 2 Track 1: Granada

Even if no one at the meeting's interested in the comparison, I hope that all participants will enjoy themselves as IMHO it's nice music, well recorded, and these are all great pressings.
 

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