The Digital/Analog Dialectic

garylkoh

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The area where digital was furthest from the tape was in the upper octaves. There was a huge loss of information. Cymbals sounded like tin cans rattling around. And the upper octaves sounded very brittle compared to the tapes.

Anybody in the Seattle area have an LP with a killer recording of cymbals we can use? I have several red-book CDs where I thought that the cymbals are very well recorded and don't sound like tin cans - Happy Coat (FIM K2HD) and 88 Basie Street (JVC XRCD) comes to mind.
 

rbbert

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Point is, more people should go to live jazz concerts and hear what real jazz instruments eg. drums, trumpets and saxes sound like. Neither tubes nor transistors get it right :(

I haven't been to a concert in years (maybe decades) where there's not some sort of PA reinforcement, even when (IMO) it's not needed. So my live music reference for yo these many years has had to be acoustic instruments in homes or sometimes outdoors.
 

mep

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I have to assume this is gross hyperbole, since even in my moderately priced system, cymbals on good CD's don't sound like that.

Sorry dude but that's what the cymbals sounded like. They sounded nothing like the tape. They sounded nothing like real cymbals. Point is, more people should go to live jazz concerts and hear what real jazz instruments eg. drums, trumpets and saxes sound like. Neither tubes nor transistors get it right :(

I think it's the microphones Myles.
 

microstrip

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Microstrip-In the way this test is being set up, the only "truth" will be can people tell the difference between an LP being played straight-up versus a digitized version of the same LP? It is not a pure analog vs. digital comparison because the source for both comparisons is the LP. It will tell (possibly) if people can distinguish the difference between the LP and the digital version of itself.

It is the first time I heard about some of the equipment listed, perhaps my arguments are poor.
But as far as I understand the experiment will use the cheapest or one one of the cheapest loudspeakers from the Genesis line, some electronics that are badly known for most of us, and you expect to find the "truth"? In my view only the "truth" in the limited scope of this environment.

Knowing the career of Genesis I do not have any doubts that the products considered are of quality and may represent excellent value for money. But why does Genesis manufacture the outstanding 1.2?

Please read the following text from "Loudspeakers: For music recording and reproduction ", Philip Newell and Keith Holland . I am no where comparing the systems involved but it shows my point - unless the resolution of the listening system is much higher than the object of the comparison you are limiting the scope of the experiment.

 

c1ferrari

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I'll probably have to get help from BruceB, MikeL or Ki Choi. I wouldn't know the first thing about optimizing tape playback.

Now, there's some great local talent...what a starting rotation :cool:
 

Ron Party

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But as far as I understand the experiment will use the cheapest or one one of the cheapest loudspeakers from the Genesis line, some electronics that are badly known for most of us, and you expect to find the "truth"? In my view only the "truth" in the limited scope of this environment.
Keeping in mind this is a dialectic, is it proper to *invalidate* the *truth* determined by Gary's test, if any, because Gary is using a particular pair of speakers? Perhaps stated another way, is the truth determined by Gary's test valid if and only if the same truth would be found no matter what speakers are used? What does the *truth* mean in the context of Gary's test?
 

microstrip

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Keeping in mind this is a dialectic, is it proper to *invalidate* the *truth* determined by Gary's test, if any, because Gary is using a particular pair of speakers? Perhaps stated another way, is the truth determined by Gary's test valid if and only if the same truth would be found no matter what speakers are used? What does the *truth* mean in the context of Gary's test?

Perhaps we are formulating the question in a complicated way - a dialectic is a way of finding the truth of some matter. An easier way to formulate the question could be : what is exactly the matter?
 

Ron Party

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I agree. But I think both are in question, IOW, what is the truth and what is the matter?
 

garylkoh

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It is the first time I heard about some of the equipment listed, perhaps my arguments are poor.
But as far as I understand the experiment will use the cheapest or one one of the cheapest loudspeakers from the Genesis line, some electronics that are badly known for most of us, and you expect to find the "truth"? In my view only the "truth" in the limited scope of this environment.

I accept microstrip's point that the truth will only be found if the reproduction chain downstream (preamp, poweramp, loudspeakers) have the resolution to reveal the truth. IMHO while they may not be to everyone's taste (preference) the chain has sufficient resolution to reveal if we can hear a difference.

Conversely, if no difference can be heard, both the analog aficionado and the digital devotee would sleep easy because the chain has insufficient resolution to reveal the truth.

This time tomorrow, the EXCO of the club is scheduled to come to the Genesis factory for a listen. I'll see if I can get some of them to post their impressions (and hopefully we can all go home before midnight).
 

garylkoh

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Keeping in mind this is a dialectic, is it proper to *invalidate* the *truth* determined by Gary's test, if any, because Gary is using a particular pair of speakers? Perhaps stated another way, is the truth determined by Gary's test valid if and only if the same truth would be found no matter what speakers are used? What does the *truth* mean in the context of Gary's test?

Ouch! Ron, your are making my head hurt. I'm not used to so much hard philosophical thinking.

There could be several truths and much that matters as a result of this experiment.

  1. Can a system be built that is equally optimized for analog and digital playback? There are those who think that given the compromises it cannot be done.
  2. Is the current state of the art of analog to digital and digital to analog conversion sufficiently transparent? There are a number of proponents in this forum of digital room correction that seem to think so.
  3. Is the digital/analog preference displayed by some masking some other deep, dark truth?

The list could go on.... and this is the beauty of a dialectic. Coming on 80 posts and I haven't been flamed once :)
 

Ron Party

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Sorry Gary.;)

I would also expand on your post: not only have you not (yet) been flamed, the entire discussion so far has been civil. So to all participants in this thread, way to go!
 

Ethan Winer

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When Ethan speaks of the "other side," he is referring to analog. Ethan is died in the wool with digits.

Actually, I have nothing against "analog," whatever that means. My microphone preamps are analog, and so is my entire playback chain after coming out my computer's sound card.

What I meant by "other side" is people I also refer to as "believers." Yes, in the religious sense. There are people who voice an opposition to "science," at least when science disagrees with their beliefs. Just this morning in another forum (Gearslutz) I saw someone dismiss null tests because he's heard differences between two files that nulled completely. These are the same people who believe that hard drives and SPDIF cables can have a sound. But I still think most of these people want to know the truth, even if it's impossible to ever actually convince them.

--Ethan
 

Gregadd

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The problem is that science is usually developed under controlled circumstances limiting as many variables as possible. In the world real everything is in play. So its not science vs religion; it's controlled conditions vs real world conditions. Say the difference from listening in an anechoic chamber vs a real living room.

I do agree that once someone has something in thier head it is very difficult to change thier mind.
 

garylkoh

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I don't know what this will prove about the resolution of the system, but here's the IMD and THD plot of the whole system - from preamp input (including the interconnect cable) to the input binding posts of the loudspeakers. So, this will give a reasonable expectation of the electronics chain.

THD

thd..jpg

I truncated the IMD measurement because I thought that I was going to blow up the speakers measuring THD up to full power - this is normally done using a resistor as a load, but thankfully the speakers survived the first test.

IMD..jpg
 
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fas42

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The problem is that science is usually developed under controlled circumstances limiting as many variables as possible. In the world real everything is in play. So its not science vs religion; it's controlled conditions vs real world conditions. Say the difference from listening in an anechoic chamber vs a real living room.

+1.

Frank
 

SeattleJazz

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Hah! Just as I thought. Look at that THD of 0.2 at 300 watts. And the IMD of .06 at only 80+ watts. We'll never hear though all that distortion. Of course, I have heard yours amps before and thought they were right up there with the best sound I've ever heard since I was 12 but it must have been the speakers I was "hearing". Therefore, I have little hope of hearing anything this evening. Hmmm...what is "hearing" anyway. Definitely don't have a fight with your significant other just before a listening session or drive a car just before. And I'd definitely recommend staying away from jack hammers just before-well actually anytime if you want to be able to hear.

Should be a great evening of "hearing" the listening this evening! Definitely looking forward to it.

Under "it is likely to be raining by listening time" Seattle skies, Gill


I don't know what this will prove about the resolution of the system, but here's the IMD and THD plot of the whole system - from preamp input (including the interconnect cable) to the input binding posts of the loudspeakers. So, this will give a reasonable expectation of the electronics chain.

THD

View attachment 1333

I truncated the IMD measurement because I thought that I was going to blow up the speakers measuring THD up to full power - this is normally done using a resistor as a load, but thankfully the speakers survived the first test.

View attachment 1334
 

mep

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Tom-I'm not sure I am following your reasoning here. Why in the world if you were recording to analog tape would you want to record at less than 0 on the VU meter? Isn't that tantamount to using the tape deck as a compressor? And now you have dropped your recommendation to -10 on the meter? Do you want the tape to be lifeless?

Bruce-where are you?
 

Bruce B

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Bruce-where are you?

:) Yeah... definitely want to kick it up a notch. Tape machines are at their optimum at 0vu. We use SM900 tape that is optimized for +9 and we bias our machines for this.
We calibrate our machines for 1.23v = 0vu
If your peaks are no higher than -10dB, then the quiet parts will get lost in tape hiss.
 

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