Buying gear from a garage operation

caesar said:

All high end audio companies are small. But some are really, really small. There's a big difference between B&W, Focal, Wilson, etc., and some guy tinkering in his house in Switzerland or in some garage in a small town in the USA.


I know some people get off on having one of a kind piece that just a handful of people in the whole world can have. But does it really make sense to get an almost one of a kind piece of audio gear?

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Hi Cesar,

I have some very limited production items in my system. These include my Teres Turntable. From my understanding and discussions with Chris Brady there are perhaps a little under 150 or so Teres turntables in existence. My turntable the Certus 450 was the second highest level turntable that Teres ever made. The highest level Teres Turntable was the Certus 460 of which only 7 were made. These were discontinued. Only 3 of the Teres Certus 450 turntables were ever made (mine being the 3d and last). The performance of my turntable with the usage of the Marigo Mystery Feet under the Certus control box contributed to the discontuation of the larger and more expensive Certus 460 turntables. The Certus 450 has also now been discontiuned and only the newer less expensive Certus 420 and 440 turntables with the composite platters are available. The wooden platter and bass of my unit are no longer offered.

Additionally, I have the first production Teres tonearm made for me by Chris, the Teres Illius. At this point, it is a low production arm and I have no idea as to the number of arms in existense.

My main speakers are made by Jonathan Weiss' company a boutique manufacturer of speakers, turntables, tube amps, tube preamps, tube phonopreamps, slate plinths, and racks called Oswalds Mill Audio. My speakers the OMA New Yorkers are the Prototypes of the speakers and there is only at this point a 2nd pair that was prepared like mine. Once in production, these speakers will not look like my speakers, but from my understanding it may be an option at a price.

My main amp is designed by Nelson Pass (Pass Labs and prior to that Threshold) and made by his "other" company First Watt. My M2 amp is his latest and one of the latest 2 that he has offered under the First Watt name, the other being the J2. The First Watt Amps are low powered Class A power amps that have until the introduction of the J2 and the M2 been in production as I understand it in the area of between 10 and 100 amps. The J2 and the M2 amps are Nelson's newest designs and intended to be produced in higher numbers with greater distribution than his other and previous products. As Nelson has indicated developments for his First Watt amps may with time find their way to the Pass Labs products. It is also entirely possible that some of the Pass Labs ideas may be implemented in the First Watt products.

Rich

You have to remember, most big companies started in a garage.
What I have a problem with is when a garage operation infringes on the good name of others to make themselves seem better when they have no affililation with said company to begin with.

15 years ago i was concerned about the risk of small scale manufacturers. i went for Wilson Watt Puppies and Mark Levinson amps, preamps and digital.....and later Linn CD-12 and Marantz SA-1. all good stuff from large scale manufacturers. all the magazines were full of this stuff. but i got bored with the sound.

then i tried the Kharma Exquisite Reference speakers and Tenor OTL monoblocks. Aesthetix Io phono.

then EMM Labs digital, Rockport tt's. next Lamm Lp2 delux phono.

then Von Schweikert speakers, darTZeel amps and preamps. Playback Designs digital, Evolution Acoustics speakers.

Kodo 'the Beat' tt, Reed arms, Talea arms. Allnic phono.

many of these products i've acquired since my Levinson/Wilson days has been 'one of the first' built of a small scale manufacturer. i've either listened and committed or knew the developer and knew the sonic signature of the direction they were going.

i've acquired gear based on the sound....and there is not a disappointment in the whole list of small scale products. the only 'failed' company was Tenor, and it's back now.

if you purchase based on listening performance you will rarely be disappointed. if you get hooked up with someone else's idea of a system, the odds of fulfillment are remote.

and i've not had a negative service experience with any of these products other than my Tenor Hybrid amps. and in the end that worked out reasonably. part of the fun of the small scale builders is that you can choose to have a personal relationship with them, which then can involve you in furture products as they appear. i know i enjoy that. try that with the big boys.

with the exception of the Rockport (which was purchased used); i think i've enjoyed the very top rung of performance without buying the most expensive gear.

I guess I fall in the category of "people get off on having one of a kind piece that just a handful of people in the whole world can have" as I own:

Galibier Stelvio Turntable (Thom Mackris)
2 Talea tonearms (Joel Durand)
Experience Music phono and line stages (Jeffrey Jackson)
Daedalus Ulysses speakers (Lou Hinkley)


This has been a gradual evolution for me. Prior to purchasing my Stelvio three years ago, I owned 'brand name' high end gear and honestly had a bit of undeducated contempt for smaller manufacturers. Two things opened my mind to the path I've subsequently embraced...a) I actually auditioned the equipment and b) I had an incredibly unpleasant repair experience with a 'name brand' piece of equipment.

"But does it really make sense to get an almost one of a kind piece of audio gear?"

My answer would be a firm MAYBE

Many audiophiles prefer to work with a dealer and develop a level of comfort having a 'name brand', especially if you like the equipment's sound. In my experience, most folks are happy with this arrangement. However...if you want to push the envelope and/or you are not satisfied with the sound of 'name brands', smaller manufacturers are the way to go. Additional benefits include participating in product development, personal service from the designer and getting a piece of equipment tailored to your taste and system. As an example, Thom Mackris delivered and set up my turntable which was terrific because he knows what appropropirate set up sounds like! I was able to get my phono stage with separate step ups for mono and stereo (hand wound by Dave Slagle) and mercury rectification in the power supply. Jeffrey will deliver and tune my line (and phono) stage next month.

Are there negatives to going this route...absolutely. You have to do your research about the equipment and more importantly the people behind the equipment. Patience is a virtue...many small manufacturers also have day jobs. That said, my experience has been superlative and has brought my system to a higher level of enjoyment and I've met some great people along the journey.

Mike Lavigne said:

if you purchase based on listening performance you will rarely be disappointed. if you get hooked up with someone else's idea of a system, the odds of fulfillment are remote.

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Salient advice, Mike

There will always be practical concerns such as availability of replacement parts, warranties, etc. A long time ago I built my first HT system up from a division of a huge multinational conglomerate. Their size made me feel secure and I was enticed by the prospect of upgradeability via software updates. I guess I was just being soft headed. I realized this when first, the big company closed this subsidiary down (bye bye upgrades) and HDMi and 1080p arrived (instant obsolescence). The products being well engineered are still happily in use even if they didn't live up to ALL the promises.

I guess you can say, I've taken a step backwards in that I am now LESS practical. I'm more open to small manufacturers after my experience. As long as the products are well engineered, I'm open.

JackD201 said:

There will always be practical concerns such as availability of replacement parts, warranties, etc. A long time ago I built my first HT system up from a division of a huge multinational conglomerate. Their size made me feel secure and I was enticed by the prospect of upgradeability via software updates. I guess I was just being soft headed. I realized this when first, the big company closed this subsidiary down (bye bye upgrades) and HDMi and 1080p arrived (instant obsolescence). The products being well engineered are still happily in use even if they didn't live up to ALL the promises.

I guess you can say, I've taken a step backwards in that I am now LESS practical. I'm more open to small manufacturers after my experience. As long as the products are well engineered, I'm open.

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One point that seems glossed over is resale value. If the company is out of business, it's nil. Even in business, it's not whole lot. Same also goes for modding. You'll never get your money out so one better really like the unit and be willing to stay with it for a while.

Personally, I like my equipment to retain its value and given the economy, it's hard to sell really good and well known gear, much less something from a company no one has heard of.

I can go either way on this one. I think the resources of a big company, like Harman International can and sometimes do deliver results that a boutique shop could only fall upon through serendipity. But my actives which are everything in my system but the source, come from a small British company, and they are pretty fabulous. So never say never say I.

Tim

Very good points Myles. A solid company reputation does keep value up. It also opens many avenues for sale. With a boutique item, the buyer needs to audition the actual unit himself due to its relative rarity.

MylesBAstor said:

One point that seems glossed over is resale value. If the company is out of business, it's nil. Even in business, it's not whole lot. Same also goes for modding. You'll never get your money out so one better really like the unit and be willing to stay with it for a while.

Personally, I like my equipment to retain its value and given the economy, it's hard to sell really good and well known gear, much less something from a company no one has heard of.

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Myles-I understand what you said and agree with all of your points. The statement you made that you "like my equipment to retain its value" needs some clarifciation as "retaining" is a very relative term for non-reviewers. We all know that if we buy a piece of gear brand new, keep it in really good shape (no pets, children, wives, maids, smoke), keep all the original boxes and packing material, we can hope to get 50% of the retail value when new (which is what the dealer paid in the first place). Now for those of you who are reviewers and you bought at the accomodation price which is essentially what the dealers would have paid, that means you actually are retaining the value you paid because you will break even. The rest of us shumcks are going to lose half of our cash assuming we bought at full retail.

It applies even more to pre-owned purchases.

That's the downside of losing the brick and mortars. You can't haggle with a shopping cart button.

We could start an entirely new thread and entitle it "The down side of losing brick and mortar audio stores" or conversely, "the upside of losing brick and mortar audio stores" and have some interesting conversations. The bottom line for this thread is that your only risk from buying a component from someone toiling in their garage is that you stand to lose all of your money when it's time to send it down the road. As long as you are willing to accept that risk, go for it. You have to think of it in terms of going to Vegas for the weekend (or wherever else you go to drop your cash off). You are most probably going to lose money and you have decided before you left home how much you are willing to gamble.

Funny, that's EXACTLY my gambling philosophy!

I've said this before, but here goes...

Everything that has been in my systems in the last 10 years, except for my Mac and some cables, was bought over the internet, after extensive research, sound unheard. I'm confident doing this because I will buy nothing from anyone who does not offer a liberal return policy insuring that I'll have an in-home trial of a couple of weeks and, if I decide against the purchase, all I'll lose is return shipping.

And I've returned a lot of stuff.

Do I still see an advantage in bricks and mortar stores? Sure. I enjoy being able to walk in and hear a component I haven't heard before, without tying the money up for a couple of weeks. And if what I'm looking for happens to be one of the few brands the store carries and displays, I may buy there. But such an insignificant percentage of the available product is there to be heard in the available stores, that it really is just for kicks and giggles. Bricks and mortar stores, at least in anything short of a city the size of LA, NY, Chicago, are just not a very functional shopping alternative anymore if you want reasonably open options. I'm not sure they ever were. And this comes from a guy who works in one.

Tim

As to the purchase of my limited production items I have had very good luck and have had the opportunity to listen to these products or similar products at the manufactures location or through shipment.

In the case of my Teres Certus 450 I visited Chris Brady of Teres and was able to audition the more expensive Teres Certus 460 and as I recall the less expensive Teres 265 with his regular motor as well as his Verus Motor. Additionally I was able to hear a very early prototype of the Teres Tonearm. I decided to order the Teres Certuss 450 at this meeting and to take a chance on the the first Teres production tonearm. I left a deposit with Chris. It took 10 months for the completion and the shipment of the turntable and the tonearm to me. Chris installed the turntable and tonearm for me as well as the cartridge that I ordered. Additionally, Chris helped me move the turntable to my new home and reinstalled the tonearm and cartridge in my new location.

I ordered my Soundsmith Strain Gauge Cartridge and Soundsmith Strain Gauge 410 Phono Preamp at Chris Brady's recommendation and without hearing the unit. It arrived several months prior to the turntable. But, Chris Brady installed the cartridge and reset it up once I moved to my new home.

As to my Oswalds Mill Audio OMA New Yorker speakers, I initially listened to the larger and more expensive OMA AC2 speakers at the Mill. To give me a better idea of how the Prototype speakers would sound in my system, Jonathan Weiss and his assistant brought the OMA Mini Horns to my home and I auditioned them in my room. I decided to go forward with the purchase of the OMA New Yorker speakers even though they were still only on the drawing board. I put down my deposit on the speakers. As things were progressing we decided to change the color of the speakers and decided to add the Cherry Stained Veneer to the cabinets. I paid the agreed upon additional amount. But, the agreement on the purchase of the speakers was that I would have the opportunity to hear the speakers at the Mill before I paid the outstanding balance. If I did not like the speakers I would be issued full refund. It took 5 months till the speakers were completed and delivered. I listened to the speakers at the Mill, paid the outstanding balance and Jonathan and his assistant delivered and installed the speakers in my listening room.

In the case of the First Watt M2 power amp, I ordered this without hearing it from Reno HiFi. But, these amps designed by Nelson Pass are only available directly (as I recall) from First Watt and 2 stores, one being Reno HiFi. I was able to purchase a Demo unit from Mark of Reno HiFi and the unit looked brand new. I was allowed to audition the amp in my system before I decided to keep the unit. Let us say, that the amp is still on the top of the rack in my listening system driving the OMA New Yorker speakers.

Rich

Garage operation almost= Diy project

For amplifier garage products still have fine design in out looking, most of the diy project don't, but these day a lot of metal cases for diy project from China quite look so pro, resell value is the main problem for both, tube gear still can worth some money compare to SS amp if the maker not exist anymore , diy parts can be reuse again so the lost is not much, ( all my friends are quite happy to take over my old project because I only charged for the cost of the parts)
Quality of garage's product will not lower than big name may be even higher that I believe, My friend who work in Sonic Frontier brought me go inside to the plant while they still in operation, I asked where is the listening room ? He pointed to a corner just with testing equipments and said designer engineer is working over there, no wonder they sound so live less !
tony ma

Tony-I used to build my own tube preamps and power amps from scratch. Like you said, they typically look like crap and they have no real resale value. You are lucky if you can get your parts cost back out of them. I would be tempted to build another pair of mono-block tube amps if someone has a killer desgin with a great schematic and parts list to go with it and it was powerful enough to drive my speakers.

As to looks, I think my components look just fine. IMO, the Talea and the Kahn phonostage are quite beautiful. The craftsmanship on my Daedalus speakers is furniture grade. The turntable is more 'industrial chic'.

As to resale value...I buy my components to keep for a very, very long time. I'd rather put my time and effort into research and auditioning before committing to purchase. I purchase the best I can afford...because it only hurts once . IMO, if you are already thinking about resale value before you purchase a piece of equipment, why bother? I purchase from builders who design components that can be upgraded as improvements develop or are committed to offering their customers generous trade in allowances as new models develop.

I went through this same problem recently---I have Zu Audio speakers, but when looking for amps---many of the 845 based amplifiers are from mom and pop organizations. Ultimately that is why I went to McIntosh for amplification---as I already enjoy the sound out of my integrated, but I can have a more mainstream component in my system. I didn't want things too out of the mainstream.

As far as 845s, if I can find a good deal on a Viva Solista---i will most likely purchase one used.