Ambiophonics, What it is

Ralph Glasgal

New Member
Like tweeting, it is not feasible to describe something like Ambiophonics in a forum such as this. But basically Ambiophonics is so named as to be accepted as the inevitable replacement for stereophonics and 5.1 at least in the same sense that 5.1 has not replaced stereo and stereo has not really displaced mono. (Think news broadcasts, AM radio, telephones, shortwave, muzac, TCM. etc.). Like stereo and its cousin 5.1, Ambiophonics can be used to reproduce 2.0 or 5.1, 7.1, 10.2 etc. media. Also although one can make optimized Ambiophonic 2.0 or Panambiophonic 4.0 recordings using an Ambiophone, a normal Ambiophonic playback system is fully compatible with standard exsisting recordings. Also like stereo, Ambio is in the public domain. Anybody can make Ambiophonic products or use it without charge. TACT Audio, Ambio4you and several other companies are already making such products but it is a well kept secret, alas. Also, like stereo, Ambio comes in all price ranges including DIY and free. The real price is the intellectual effort required to unlearn stereo and understand Ambiophonic principles.

In brief, Ambiophonics in all its versions is a loudspeaker binaural methodolgy. In contrast, stereophonic reproduction (including 5.1) is based on an unusual sonic illusion akin to an optical illusion and as such has easy to demonstrate psychoacoustic defects that cannot be overcome, only tolerated. I use the term binaural to mean how we hear normally-nothing to do with earphones. Basically, binaural technologies, such as Wavefield Synthesis, Ambisonics, and Ambiophonics, strive to produce a home soundfield that closely resembles what you would have heard had you been at the microphone position during the recording session. For a variety of reasons, the stereo loudspeaker triangle cannot reproduce such a soundfield even if the recording, the media, and the reproducing equipment are perfect.

For audiophiles, who are not interested in the 3D reproduction of movies, video, games, etc. listening Ambiophonically to 2.0 media such as LPs,CDs, and MPs yields reproduction with greater clarity, depth, timbral fidelity, dynamic range, purity, perspective, pace, coherence, and musicality. In brief, you get more normal psychoacoustic realism even if you don't care about the wide soundstaging or creating a Domestic Concert Hall, as John Atkinson once termed this.

You can see a Domestic Concert Hall if you read the recent Bergen Record (N.J.) newspaper article at
http://bit.ly/hW4kwD
click at the bottom to see the second article.

Ralph Glasgal
www.ambiophonics.org
 

metronimo

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2010
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The real price is the intellectual effort required to unlearn stereo and understand Ambiophonic principles.

I agree. And the best way to unlearn is to try cross-talk cancellation in a very crude way: with a physical barrier.
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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For audiophiles, who are not interested in the 3D reproduction of movies, video, games, etc. listening Ambiophonically to 2.0 media such as LPs,CDs, and MPs yields reproduction with greater clarity, depth, timbral fidelity, dynamic range, purity, perspective, pace, coherence, and musicality. In brief, you get more normal psychoacoustic realism even if you don't care about the wide soundstaging or creating a Domestic Concert Hall, as John Atkinson once termed this.

Ralph Glasgal
www.ambiophonics.org

All the things you mentioned as improvements are what audiiphiles spend big money on in hopes of improving those very areas. So now we have some whizz bang software/hardware combo that is going to bring us all of this? How long has your product been on the market and who is using it and reviewing it? Marketing claims/hype all read well on paper, but the bigger the claims are is usually proportional to the user disappointment. Anyone remember the Carver C-9 Sonic Hologram generator? How about all of those settings on your AVR receiver like "club" "stadium" "rock concert" etc. Does anyone really listen to those wretched settings?
 

Ralph Glasgal

New Member
All the things you mentioned as improvements are what audiiphiles spend big money on in hopes of improving those very areas. So now we have some whizz bang software/hardware combo that is going to bring us all of this? How long has your product been on the market and who is using it and reviewing it? Marketing claims/hype all read well on paper, but the bigger the claims are is usually proportional to the user disappointment. Anyone remember the Carver C-9 Sonic Hologram generator? How about all of those settings on your AVR receiver like "club" "stadium" "rock concert" etc. Does anyone really listen to those wretched settings?

Ambiophonics is not a product it is a methodology like sterophonics. So far only a handful of suppliers offer Ambiophonic products and most users just use the free software files. Mostly, once you understand how Ambiophonics differs from stereophonics you can then do your own configurations just as you can with stereo. The products you mention were early attempts to correct the difficiencies of plain stereo. I am sure that if you can master the basics of Ambiophonics you may find ways to tweak it to taste just as one does with stereo. Basic Ambiophonics via just two speakers does not involve the newer extremely sophisticated concert-hall ambience features generated by convolution from real precisely measured hall impulse responses. But even if one does not like such convolved ambience, such surround sound options do not besmirch two speaker Ambiophonics any more then stereo is tarnished by the poor performance of 5.1 surround sound.

Actually, at the moment only very skilled computer mavens can utilize the concert-hall ambience programs and hundred odd hall impulse responses available. There is no component version available for normal audiophiles to use. Also adjusting the levels of a variety of ambient surround speakers is a lifetime occupation for perfectionists. Also, if you only listen to Chesky-like solo vocalists with guitar or small combo you don't need the ambience.

It would be great if one of the magazines would review or write an article about Ambiophonics but so far only the Bergen Record, a newspaper in New Jersey, has done so. http://ly/hW4kwD
(don't forget to click on the second part at the bottom) There are lots of postings on various forums and some of them are posted at www.ambiophonics.org

The sonic hologram was a brave attempt to solve the problem of stereo crosstalk. But at the time Bob Carver did not have digital processors available to do the job properly. He could only do a one shot cancelation whereas what is needed is a recursive algorithm. Also he did not realize that the speaker angle must be narrowed by about two thirds to correct for pinna problems. Lkewise some of the pioneering attempts at generating signals for surround speakers were not adequate. Are we not to play SACDs because 78s were not high fidelity in 1910?

But I really have to tell you that watching 5.1 movies or TV Ambiophonically via four speakers is where it's at. Also, two speaker stereo is an artform like black and white photography and going from stereo to Ambio is no more likely than expecting the black and white guys to adopt color.

Ralph Glasgal
 

metronimo

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2010
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All the things you mentioned as improvements are what audiiphiles spend big money on in hopes of improving those very areas.

mep, sometimes spending big money is not a solution. Just stick a big panel between some random cheap speakers, setting them next to each other (as close as possible), then put your forehead against the panel in order to isolate your right ear from the left speaker and the left ear from the right speaker. Listen carefully. Then pick up your jaw from the floor and try again with your favorite speakers. If you remember the Carver gizmo, as I do since I tried it in the 80's, then you might agree that this simple panel trick gives much better results. Some recording engineers are using small physical barriers while mixing, so it's not only a matter of "whizz bang software/hardware combo", as you suggest. What Mr. Glasgal (and others) are trying to do is create a virtual barrier because a physical barrier is too impractical. Mr. Glasgal allow us to use and implement his algorithm freely like Benjamin Franklin allowed people to build glass harmonicas.
 
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Ralph Glasgal

New Member
As above, a physical barrier is as per audiophile requirements. It introduces no cables, no noise, no distortion, no frequency response changes, no concerns of analog versus digital, no controls, and so is an ideal 2.0 tweak. But this wall between your legs needs to be thicker than your head and ten inches or more is ideal. It needs to extend from the floor to a few feet above your head. It does not need to go all the way to the speakers, but it is good if the speakers are close enough to the far end of the barrier to be considered near field. The inner edges of the speakers should be about parallel to the wall and so firing along it. If the speakers are at too wide an angle the wall does not work well since sound goes around the end of it where you are sitting. RPG made such a wall years ago but you can just use a big mattress on end. See Stereophile, July 1988, Audio Video Interiors, Nov. 1995

If you can hear differences in cables then a wall like this is the only way you can go. If you are not in this category and also want to watch TV and movies Ambiophonically and in real surround, then you must use one of the new electronic versions of the wall. There are now free software versions, if you are into PCs, or audio components from Hong Kong and TacT if you are not and want other conveniences like remote control, 5.1 playback, and input selection.

Ralph Glasgal
www.ambiophonics.org
glasgal@ambiophonics.org
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator

Ralph Glasgal

New Member
The Tom Danley experiment is not Ambiophonics. But his description does describe the difficulties in producing psychoacoustic versimilitude (binaural realism as opposed to the stereophonic sonic illusion) using relatively standard recording methods and the 60 degree loudspeaker triangle for reproduction.

The Ambiophonic group has developed a mic assembly called the Ambiophone which you can read about and see on the Ambiophonic site. This two or four channel device does make it easy to make full 2.0 or 4.0 recordings that sound great when played back Ambiophonically. You can sample some of these recordings by downloading them from the Ambiophonic website. The 4.0 DTS encoded demo tracks also need RACE processing of the front and rear pairs if you want 3D sound. Other samples are already RACE processed so you just need to put your speakers closer together and listen to what an Ambiophone can do. But note that like stereo the best results require that you adjust the RACE parameters for your own speakers, recordings, room, etc. so these pre processed samples may not be optimum for you. But the point is to compare stereo to Ambio while listening. You can do this just by moving up to the sixty degree angle and then back again to the approximately twenty degree angle. This way you can decide if you like to hear at least this 2.0 recording stereophonically or Ambiophonically. Hopefully, you will do this using your own favorite tracks sometime.

Ralph Glasgal
 

Ralph Glasgal

New Member
Thanks Ralph

What is RACE processing

RACE stands for Recursive Ambiophonic Crosstalk Cancellation. The details, equations and a block diagram are part of an AES paper posted on the Ambiophonic.org website. But in brief the early attempts at loudspeaker binaural as in Carver's Sonic Hologram, just sent a delayed inverted version of the right speaker signal to the left speaker (and the same for a left channel sound). The problem with this oneshot simple method is that the correction signal meant for the left speaker and thus the left ear, also goes past the head and reaches the right ear. So it is then necessary to get rid of this erroneous sound wave also. Thus to insure that the right channel sound reaches only the right ear and the left channel speaker sound reaches only the left ear you need a system that is iterative and seesaws until inaudibility. For other psychoacoustic reasons, it also can be proven that the speakers must be moved to a narrower angle which was something not underestood in the earlier Carver, Lexicon, and Polk approachs to this problem.

It took me some twenty years until I could get modern computer hardware that could do this in realtime so you could just play any recording this way (without using a wall).

Ralph Glasgal
 

RogerD

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May 23, 2010
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BiggestLittleCity
I posted my 2 channel experiment over on the member gallery http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?1769-My-2-channel-experiment,Lee commented that he thought the circuit I was using was a crosstalk cancelation scheme. As I remember now from 30 years back,I think that is indeed what I have and have been using off and on since. I just recently mounted the speakers where my audio engineer friend said to place them. Above and outside the main speakers.

Can anybody tell me if this is in wider use and if not why? I probably get some interesting feedback on that question. But like our fearless leader said,I find this kind of stuff tremendously interesting. Also to set this up is pretty inexpensive by todays standards.

Any feedback would be appreciated.
 

RogerD

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Hi Tom,

I noticed you post a lot about binaural sound,which is good. You ask some excellant questions.

Does your system really sound like mono when you bypass the box? Well my brother turned off the dedicated amplifier last night while I was in another room, and I was unaware of this. I sat down and listened to a after dark CD with many Jazz vocals. The midrange was extremely focused which it always is. Mono is center field focused with imaging in between the speakers. Without the box, the sound compared to much like mono. When my brother told me he had cut the circuit out, I was surprised to tell you the truth. I then powered up the amp and the vocals remained very focused and even more so,as very minor details became recognisable,syballyse,mike placement,movements of the singer, piano felts,pedals and so forth.

All the while the soundstage becomes very multi layered from top to bottom and side to side, very homogenous.

or, is it just normal stereo that sounds a bit boring after hearing the "box"? Well normal stereo is not boring in my system, but yes ,without the box it does lose the inner detail and "live" music high that I get. The term audio nirvana comes to mind.


Is the effect due to the added speakers being powered by this box...whats the setup?

Since you can't really tell if there is any sound coming from the psycho's it's hard to say. My brother is still baffled at not being able to tell if they are really operating.

Is there any added reverb sound to the music when playing the "box"? reverb? well if it's in the original recording it's produced. As far as I can tell there's nothing added that is false or not in the recording itself. Overenhanced? I don't think so.
 
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RogerD

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Tom,

This is a quote from that study I linked to and pretty much sums up what I hear exactly.

"Binaural recordings are those which contain signals representing the sound waves actually present at each ear
during a performance and can be created either through the use of a “dummy head” with microphones for ears or
they can be synthesized on a computer. In either case, the advantage of binaural recordings is that they reproduce the
spatial characteristics of the material much better than traditional stereo
; however, this effect is significantly
degraded by crosstalk."
 

RogerD

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Hi Tom,

Well yes there is defineatly sound produced. This is kind of funny. I just hooked these up Wednesday afternoon when I got my Accuphase back. I have about a 9ft couch and my brother has yet to grace the sweet spot. Tonight he moved from the outside to the center and he has become a true believer. I sat on the outside,about 2ft off axis from the right speaker and lo and behold he was right. I couldn't tell if there was sound coming out of the psycho's if my life depended on it. I played the SACD living stereo Morton Gould Copland/Groffe. I must have listened to this recording 50 times and have never heard it this way before. From my spot it was like I was sitting 2/3rds of the way back in the hall aginst the right wall. I think IIRC that is where one of the 3 mikes were placed when the RCA engineers did their setup. Anyway the recording was about as 3D as I have heard,just a awesome piece of music.

If your'e ever in Reno let me know. I would enjoy the company.

Also as far as i can recall there is no processors or IC's used in the circuit.

Regards,
Roger
 

Theresa

New Member
Mar 7, 2011
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All the things you mentioned as improvements are what audiiphiles spend big money on in hopes of improving those very areas. So now we have some whizz bang software/hardware combo that is going to bring us all of this? How long has your product been on the market and who is using it and reviewing it? Marketing claims/hype all read well on paper, but the bigger the claims are is usually proportional to the user disappointment. Anyone remember the Carver C-9 Sonic Hologram generator? How about all of those settings on your AVR receiver like "club" "stadium" "rock concert" etc. Does anyone really listen to those wretched settings?

The acceptability of various sound fields, in my experience, varies a great deal with Yamaha doing it best. I have a Yamaha DSP-A1 that used to be my main "amp" and I miss the soundfields. I always reduced the effect until it was barely there. I miss those soundfields now that I have an Emo UMC-1. The Emo's "sound effects" are so bad I wouldn't dream of using them. Also, the Emo is a lot more transparent than the Yamaha, but is more than a decade newer.
I am not a purist but in the past was forced to be one because of the equipment I had, back in the early '70s. Being a purist is a dead end I believe but audio is all about enjoying the sound from one's equipment regardless of what it is. If that means listening to stereo sources with DPLIIx than that shouldn't be dismissed by purist ideologies.
 

RUR

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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TacT makes a four channel RACE pre/pro, though I've read no user experiences. The 2.2XP also has an ambiophonics function built-in, but I've toyed with it only once and really didn't know how to properly set the parameters in order to learn anything useful.
 

RogerD

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TacT makes a four channel RACE pre/pro, though I've read no user experiences. The 2.2XP also has an ambiophonics function built-in, but I've toyed with it only once and really didn't know how to properly set the parameters in order to learn anything useful.

Looks like a nice piece of gear. I wonder if I could sell my black box for 1/10 the cost which would be 500.00 or less,just kidding.
 

RogerD

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What my experience is all that is needed is to enhance the decay and reverb captured in the performance venue. Have two speakers soley for that purpose and that's what I have in my system. It adds depth and width plus micro detail from high to low and creates a wonderful midrange.

The mic captures everything and there is a high probability that a 3D holographic presentation should be the result, If it's in the recording it will be there.

There is a way to do this, I know I have the circuit. I think things are a lot simpler and why reinvent the wheel, all the information is there,just extract it. There is plenty of smart people here,get out of the box.
 
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Ralph Glasgal

New Member
In the main forum heading-

It is either ambisonics or Ambiophonics. There is no such thing as ambiosonics at the moment. Ambisonics is a 40 year old technology that is quite useful mathematically and in recording studios to process audio files or the output of a four channel microphone, normally a Soundfield. It is now mostly used to fabricate 3D soundfields for electronic music. It is not something that can be used in the home to play your exisiting collection of LPs. CDs, files, or DVDs. An acoustic recording of a symphony orchestra has to be made with a four channel microphone or even more mics and media channels if higher order ambisonics is desired. The more channels, the more accurate is the soundfield produced at the listening position. Four speakers is the minimum, but normally many more speakers are required including elevated and even depressed speakers. If you are a perfectionist, the ambisonic listening area is very small, normally about the size of a volley ball. But compared to the old quad arrangement (SQ, CD4) and now 5.1, surround sound ambisonics is certainly better, but not practical for home use or to play all those iTunes files out there not to mention all the existing discs.

Ambiophonics like stereophonics is simply a two or four channel playback method that many listeners and vendors can use if they wish to improve the quality of reproduction of two channel or fourchannel media such as LPs, MP3s, CDs, etc, or with four speakers, DVDs, BDs, SQs, etc. There are already a variety of Ambiophonic programs, apps, components, transcoders, VST plugins, etc. to suit the various listening worlds, just as stereo is used in components, PCs, tablets, smart phones, clock radios, cars, etc. There are also other loudspeaker binaural varieties related to Ambiophonics that go by other names. I am sure that by the time the decade is over, most listening of music and video will be via some form of Ambio, (spelled in Japanese) in that putting speakers at 60 degrees will no longer be necessary nor desirable for the best quality sound. The popular Soundmatters foxL speaker design, has speakers only 4 inchs apart! The popular Jambox licensed from Soundmatters, has a similar spacing. The Jambox now includes an Ambio like feature, but it is not adjustable as are the available Ambiophonic apps and components for that matter. But all this is just the beginning.

I don't see a way to get notice of replies so if you want me to seee a reply or get a reply from please me let me know directly.

Ralph Glasgal
glasgal@ambiophonics.org
 

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