Comparative listening to grounding devices

Folsom

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As long as people go on speaking about resistance it is just voodoo. Signals and noise are AC with an extremely large bandwidth - what matters is impedance, a much more complex subject.

The more expensive devices are electromechanical "grounding" devices - even less easy to understand.

Impedance is basically infinite when you can't "complete the circuit".... which the majority of these devices explicitly don't do. There for they are clearly not a "hole" for enoise.

You can the biggest cable in the world, and still have high impedance because of other factors in relation to what is connected to what, and the type of signal.
 

microstrip

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Yes larger wire gauge has lower impedance.

But as soon as you enter the hundred kilohertz zone impedance is dominated by inductance, not resistance. Considering that 1cm diameter wire has an an inductance that is only half of that of .1mm diameter wire , an wire made with two separate insulated strands of .1 mm is equivalent to your enormous section wire at these frequencies.

We can easily see it at internet calculators such as http://www.consultrsr.net/resources/eis/induct5.htm
 

microstrip

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Impedance is basically infinite when you can't "complete the circuit".... which the majority of these devices explicitly don't do. There for they are clearly not a "hole" for enoise.

You can the biggest cable in the world, and still have high impedance because of other factors in relation to what is connected to what, and the type of signal.

Exactly. It is why it is voodoo. People do not know how noise interferes with sound quality, what are the critical specific bandwidths and amplitudes - but still make beautiful theories and consider themselves experts! Curiously some of these "grounding "devices are noise generators!
 

microstrip

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Micro does the Qkore system interface with the audio signal? Or does the wiring bond with other chassis by a chassis connection?

No, just chassis to separate ground points in the Qkore device.

There is a large variety of techniques in these devices - sometimes grounding points are connected by mysterious chambers, sometimes they float , sometimes they have a mysterious connection to mother earth through a mains ground wire ... Anyway what really matters is listening!
 

Folsom

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Exactly. It is why it is voodoo. People do not know how noise interferes with sound quality, what are the critical specific bandwidths and amplitudes - but still make beautiful theories and consider themselves experts! Curiously some of these "grounding "devices are noise generators!

Actually we do have a pretty good idea. Someone who left the forum to make another forum even measured exactly what the Entreq does, and proclaimed it does nothing despite posting the clear evidence of what the box is doing.

I think one of the issues here is that Roger is reducing noise across his interconnects, a measurable improvement, but is under the impression the ground boxes do something similar when they do not.
 

microstrip

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Actually we do have a pretty good idea. Someone who left the forum to make another forum even measured exactly what the Entreq does, and proclaimed it does nothing despite posting the clear evidence of what the box is doing.

I think one of the issues here is that Roger is reducing noise across his interconnects, a measurable improvement, but is under the impression the ground boxes do something similar when they do not.

Even Entreq has a lot of different devices. So unless people say exactly what they are addressing they risk saying nonsenses. Qkore has three different "ground boxes" Q1, Q3 and Q6.

Reducing audio low frequency noise is always good, but not what is being mainly debated.
 

RogerD

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Well Amir doesn’t understand what they do. Read what bonding and star grounding does in setting up recording equipment in studios. Lowers stray voltage, transformer leakage,EMF and reduces the voltage differential between the bonded equipment.
Audio engineers use stranded copper strapping and cable for bonding,because you are dealing with micro voltage. I see no need for a specialized cable.
When a amplifier manufacturer wraps a transformer what does he expect or hope to happen...or when he uses a star grounding scheme in that amplifier?
 

LL21

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Actually we do have a pretty good idea. Someone who left the forum to make another forum even measured exactly what the Entreq does, and proclaimed it does nothing despite posting the clear evidence of what the box is doing.

I think one of the issues here is that Roger is reducing noise across his interconnects, a measurable improvement, but is under the impression the ground boxes do something similar when they do not.

I [sorta] remember that...the person measured a signal going thru the Entreq and realized it measured WORSE. HOWEVER, I pointed out that that would happen with ANY piece of equipment. A pure, perfect signal on one end will get distorted running thru any preamp, amp, wire, etc...

When I asked him to re-run the experiment by running the signal thru an AMP first...and then re-run thru the AMP (but now with Entreq connected to the AMP) to see if the signal was preserved better or not...he either did not reply or i recall he replied he could not be bothered to carry the Entreq to the other bench to hook it up to his amp.

I am NOT saying Tripoint or Entreq improve the signal...i am no techie and have no qualifications to speak in such terms. I am only saying I can understand more words in a complex piece of choral music WITH the Tripoint...but if i take it out, there are more words i cannot understand. I have no idea why...but i cannot imagine that Tripoint ADDS distortion...and then makes more choral words understandable?
 

Folsom

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It didn't add distortion per se. Enoise and distortion are not entirely synonymous. The distinct "benefit" are clearly shown, but disregarded. It is just extra RF. A lot of people know full-well RF can enhance certain attributes of music playback. This simply is not a mystery except to those who refuse to believe the facts. I believe the refusal comes from an inability to accept that the RF boogie man can be a good thing depending on what you want to achieve.

Different brands will have different techniques - like active boxes that generate RF to have a stronger signal in the room instead of being dependent on what is in the air.

This is all somewhat obvious, but it is a struggle for many to accept. Engineers are baffled because improvements are not suppose to come this way. But we see clear and distinct efforts to try and influence more of the market's desire for what RF can do. Look at CH balanced cables, they have no shield - and many manufacturers don't connect to the shield pin because they know what sound people prefer.

*RF in the wrong places, or the wrong RF frequency ranges can be really bad, objectively and subjectively. Many of these products are fine tuning for what works in one way or another.
 
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LL21

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interesting...thanks for that. I had always assumed that RF was 'always bad', and when the intelligibility of words in choral music improved after putting in Tripoint, that any RF must be lower. i suppose that is what makes audio design both art and science.
 

Folsom

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Indeed.

A lot of what we are often doing is trying to make up for inadequecy of an imperfect recording to production as well. So the "pure" concept has limitations. While you are typically never hearing the RF itself, the abberation may at times resemble more of what you would hear in a live setting. It's complicated. But general consesus is that for a lot of audiophiles the sensation of a live band is very important.

I am a little different, and more willing to be subject to the indiscretions of each different recording if it means I have some other factors being better. Soundstage imaging is neat, but I can accept that only some recordings truly have it well done. I think I fall into the "natural" camp, which isn't always so fast to stimulate you at high regards without a good album and some investment to wait for the moments that grab.
 

RogerD

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I [sorta] remember that...the person measured a signal going thru the Entreq and realized it measured WORSE. HOWEVER, I pointed out that that would happen with ANY piece of equipment. A pure, perfect signal on one end will get distorted running thru any preamp, amp, wire, etc...

When I asked him to re-run the experiment by running the signal thru an AMP first...and then re-run thru the AMP (but now with Entreq connected to the AMP) to see if the signal was preserved better or not...he either did not reply or i recall he replied he could not be bothered to carry the Entreq to the other bench to hook it up to his amp.

I am NOT saying Tripoint or Entreq improve the signal...i am no techie and have no qualifications to speak in such terms. I am only saying I can understand more words in a complex piece of choral music WITH the Tripoint...but if i take it out, there are more words i cannot understand. I have no idea why...but i cannot imagine that Tripoint ADDS distortion...and then makes more choral words understandable?

interesting...thanks for that. I had always assumed that RF was 'always bad', and when the intelligibility of words in choral music improved after putting in Tripoint, that any RF must be lower. i suppose that is what makes audio design both art and science.
Lloyd...your experience mirrors so many others including me. The only thing that Tripoint and many others won’t tell the world is their proprietary design aspects...it bugs the hell out of some people,but matters very little to a satisfied customer.
I looked back in my system blog and found a quote a recording engineer sent me. It is not complete,but I couldn’t find the rest about common mode noise, but I find his explanation very helpful:

"Same principles apply to controlling noise currents/voltages on the ground/shield paths.

Chassis grounding in audio is no different than for any other circuit sensitive to noise. Keeping a good chassis ground relatively independent of signal ground can do anything from nothing to profound improvements in the noise floor depending on the circuit design and implementation. You generally want the "noise" path to ground to be different than the signal return path, and often that means a heavy chassis ground to provide the lowest impedance path for noise while the signal return goes through the signal cables.

“Like many things, conceptually simple, straight-forward good engineering practice, but not well known or recognized and can be unexpectedly difficult to implement well. There are numerous texts and courses teaching noise control."

strap everything so all ground noise is common-mode, then shielded cables for low-level signals and only low-impedance (e.g. speaker) or isolated (e.g. power) connections should control noise for the vast majority of folk.

P.S. Lloyd in your quote above,the Entreq must be a signal ground unit. In a chassis ground unit,no signal path is dissected.
 
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microstrip

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interesting...thanks for that. I had always assumed that RF was 'always bad', and when the intelligibility of words in choral music improved after putting in Tripoint, that any RF must be lower. i suppose that is what makes audio design both art and science.

No Lloyd, thinks are not so simple, on the contrary. We should always be aware of audio theories that claim that they reduce very complex thinks to the basic version of Ohm's law. Some old people said Electronics is just Ohm's law and common sense. I always say Ohm's law, common sense and a little else, and it is the little else that makes the difference ... :D

I have often said that the high-end is an additive process and can only be understood using this perspective. Surely IMHO, YMMV.
 

microstrip

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It didn't add distortion per se. Enoise and distortion are not entirely synonymous. The distinct "benefit" are clearly shown, but disregarded. It is just extra RF. A lot of people know full-well RF can enhance certain attributes of music playback. This simply is not a mystery except to those who refuse to believe the facts. I believe the refusal comes from an inability to accept that the RF boogie man can be a good thing depending on what you want to achieve.

Different brands will have different techniques - like active boxes that generate RF to have a stronger signal in the room instead of being dependent on what is in the air.

This is all somewhat obvious, but it is a struggle for many to accept. Engineers are baffled because improvements are not suppose to come this way. But we see clear and distinct efforts to try and influence more of the market's desire for what RF can do. Look at CH balanced cables, they have no shield - and many manufacturers don't connect to the shield pin because they know what sound people prefer.

*RF in the wrong places, or the wrong RF frequency ranges can be really bad, objectively and subjectively. Many of these products are fine tuning for what works in one way or another.

Good points. The question is knowing what is good enoise and bad enoise. And bringing a systematic to this subject.
 

Folsom

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I believe Entreq addressed that question with the "kitty litter", at least partly for themselves anyway.

So far I can say that generally speaking enoise crossing from the AC power coming in tends to be bad. There are a few questions like, is it the (often) common mode path that does not mix well, how it interacts with diodes, or the other common mode across IC's. Maybe it is just the frequency. These are certainly things to be defined. I'll see if I can dig up a little bit on one of my own designs and the frequencies.
 

sbnx

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But as soon as you enter the hundred kilohertz zone impedance is dominated by inductance, not resistance. Considering that 1cm diameter wire has an an inductance that is only half of that of .1mm diameter wire , an wire made with two separate insulated strands of .1 mm is equivalent to your enormous section wire at these frequencies.

We can easily see it at internet calculators such as http://www.consultrsr.net/resources/eis/induct5.htm
I realize this is an old thread but I feel the urge to add something here in case anyone (besides me) might be looking at these types of devices in the future.

As microstrip rightly points out as the frequency goes up the impedance (of the wire) will be dominated by the inductance. So if we are wanting to "bleed off" high frequency noise then we will need a low inductance cable. When it comes to inductance geometry is everything.

For example, if we were to choose between two wires both having the same cross sectional area. One of them silver with a round cross section and the other one copper with a rectangular (almost flat) cross section then we should choose the one that is rectangular. Why? If the two wires have the same cross sectional area then the inductance of the rectangular shape will be almost half that of the round shape. The DC resistance (which does add to the total impedance) will surely be lower (by about 3%) in the silver wire but when trying to conduct MHz or GHz signal (noise) the 3% lower resistance will be almost inconsequential.

Of course shorter wires are also better. I don't know why a certain company sells these in 2m lengths. What does "mechanical" tuning of a wire have to do with conducting noise. Someone may be able to guide me through that thought process. @microstrip said he tried some other wire but indicated it did not work as well as the one provided. Perhaps he has since found a wire that works better or the provided cable still works best.

Also of note here is that at high frequencies such as MHz or GHz skin effect starts to matter a lot. So a many stranded cable would be much preferred to one larger diameter wire (of the same cross sectional area).
 
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sbnx

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I thought I would update this with some more useful information. Well, at least useful to someone who wants to be informed on how to make (or buy) a good high frequency grounding cable.

Here is the skin depth of a conductor vs. frequency. (copper and silver are almost identical). For reference a 24 gauge wire is only about 0.5mm (or 500 um).

100 KHz -- 206 um
1 MHz -- 65 um
10 MHz -- 20 um
1 GHz -- 2 um
10 GHz -- 0.6 um

From this we see that the high frequency information (or noise) is only conducting along the surface of the wire. I believe this is likely why the Nordost cable seems to work so well. They have plated a thin silver layer on the surface of a copper core and then polished it to remove surface irregularities. This is much the same as how companies like Belden make video cables. They coat copper onto a steel core.

So if one wants to conduct a lot of high frequency noise then the cable needs to have a lot of surface area, have low inductance and the surface material matters. It is also easy to see how the surface condition would also matter.


Attached is a graph the shows the the curve of impedance vs frequency for a cable.

1641229341018.png
 
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