Some tantalizing rumors about Wilson and Magico

ack · Jan 22, 2011

In case you haven't seen this thread...

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1295540933&openflup&46&4#46
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1295540933&openflup&51&4#51

Bruce B · Jan 22, 2011

links don't work for me

flez007 · Jan 23, 2011

ack · Jan 23, 2011

It's because audiogon was down for a while right after I posted; noticed it too; they work now.

Phelonious Ponk · Jan 23, 2011

I don't know about Vandersteen, but I've never been under the impression that Wilson and Magico were particularly innovative. Experimenting with alternative materials to reduce cabinet resonance is old school design. So are their drivers. So are their crossovers, as far as I can tell. To me, they just look like companies that are executing the fundamentals extremely well and without compromise. Am I missing something?

Tim

FrantzM · Jan 23, 2011

Phelonious Ponk said:
I don't know about Vandersteen, but I've never been under the impression that Wilson and Magico were particularly innovative. Experimenting with alternative materials to reduce cabinet resonance is old school design. So are their drivers. So are their crossovers, as far as I can tell. To me, they just look like companies that are executing the fundamentals extremely well and without compromise. Am I missing something?

Tim

Since YOU Phelonious posted thatbefore me, I feel free to say the same ... Really but really what is so onnovative about Magico or Wilson? I am not saying that they don't sound good... Quite the contrary in several models I am simply wondering how innovative they really are ... OTOH Vandersteen, Thiel, MBL would get my vote on the innovation front..

Phelonious Ponk · Jan 23, 2011

They do sound good. Executing the fundamentals well is probably the best way to sound good. Experimentation is more often a way to discover breakthroughs with great promise and great problems that are eventually mainstreamed into "executing the fundamentals well." But consider the old-school source. I still haven't heard very many metal tweeters I like

.

Tim

audioguy · Jan 23, 2011

FrantzM said:
Vandersteen, Thiel, MBL would get my vote on the innovation front..

Curious: What about their designs demonstrates innovation? I'm not disagreeing but having owned at least one of those, the word "innovative" never really jumped at me.

Speakers like the original Apogee, the Maggies, and other designs that use either very different configurations of drivers or different driver concepts (like Maggies) strike me as more innovative than using conventional drivers.

Just curious.

MylesBAstor · Jan 23, 2011

audioguy said:
Curious: What about their designs demonstrates innovation? I'm not disagreeing but having owned at least one of those, the word "innovative" never really jumped at me.

Speakers like the original Apogee, the Maggies, and other designs that use either very different configurations of drivers or different driver concepts (like Maggies) strike me as more innovative than using conventional drivers.

Just curious.

Go to their factory and you'll see why. Ive been at Wilson and they've recently just about doubled their manufacturing and R&D space. There are also plenty of manufacturing videos showing Wilson and Magico being built. Look and see how the Wilsons are even painted. Nothing short of a Ferrari is done that way. The attention to detail is second to none. Look at how they voice the speaker using a multitude of rooms, etc. etc. Then come back and tell us they're not innovative.

MylesBAstor · Jan 23, 2011

ack said:
In case you haven't seen this thread...

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1295540933&openflup&46&4#46
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1295540933&openflup&51&4#51

Let's see: SSAVB is a Magico dealer. Elberoth also seems like a dealer by looking at the equipment he has for sale too. So do you really believe anything they have to say, not to mention Elberoth owns Wilsons too?

Randall Smith · Jan 23, 2011

MylesBAstor said:
Then come back and tell us they're not innovative.

they are not innovative

ack · Jan 23, 2011

MylesBAstor said:
Let's see: SSAVB is a Magico dealer. Elberoth also seems like a dealer by looking at the equipment he has for sale too. So do you really believe anything they have to say, not to mention Elberoth owns Wilsons too?

Sorry, but I didn't say I believe or not believe anything... that's why I called them rumors.

mep · Jan 23, 2011

I guess someone would have to define what innovative means for today's speaker manufacturers. I don't think that building a speaker incredibly well makes you innovative. To me, to be innovative means you have to bring an entirely new concept to the table that hasn't been tried before. When was the last time that we saw something completely new in speaker design? For the most part, we are still using cones and domes and they have been around forever. Electrostatic speakers have been on the commercial market since the 1950s. Ribbons have been around for quite awhile too. Ditto for Ohm Walsh type speakers.
Drivers have improved, crossovers have improved, cabinets have improved, diaphragm material for stats and ribbons have improved, computer modeling software has improved, but the key word is “improve.” Speaker manufacturers are improving on existing technology. The way I see it, everyone is standing on the shoulders of the giants that came before them. And this is no different for any other part of our hobby.
In summary, I guess for me to call a speaker company innovative, they would have to bring something entirely new to the table that we haven’t seen before. Perfect automotive paint finishes on your speakers doesn’t count.

MylesBAstor · Jan 23, 2011

mep said:
I guess someone would have to define what innovative means for today's speaker manufacturers. I don't think that building a speaker incredibly well makes you innovative. To me, to be innovative means you have to bring an entirely new concept to the table that hasn't been tried before. When was the last time that we saw something completely new in speaker design? For the most part, we are still using cones and domes and they have been around forever. Electrostatic speakers have been on the commercial market since the 1950’s. Ribbons have been around for quite awhile too. Ditto for Ohm Walsh type speakers.
Drivers have improved, crossovers have improved, cabinets have improved, diaphragm material for stats and ribbons have improved, computer modeling software has improved, but the key word is “improve.” Speaker manufacturers are improving on existing technology. The way I see it, everyone is standing on the shoulders of the giants that came before them. And this is no different for any other part of our hobby.
In summary, I guess for me to call a speaker company innovative, they would have to bring something entirely new to the table that we haven’t seen before. Perfect automotive paint finishes on your speakers doesn’t count.

Kind of what people said about Bob Dylan too.

mep · Jan 23, 2011

I don't know if that's an apt analogy Myles. Are you talking about when Dylan went electric?

MylesBAstor · Jan 23, 2011

Randall Smith said:
they are not innovative

Well then I think Mark raised an important question. What do you consider innovative? Is innovative improving a current design or driver?

Innovative might be then considered a completely new technology. Maybe then the last was the Hill Plasmatronics or John Iverson speakers that were shown at CES and never came to market?

Is any speaker company innovative? Vandersteen? ML? Revel? Magico? Wilson? NOLA? Magnepan? TAD? Quad?

Jeff Fritz · Jan 23, 2011

MylesBAstor said:
Go to their factory and you'll see why. Ive been at Wilson and they've recently just about doubled their manufacturing and R&D space. There are also plenty of manufacturing videos showing Wilson and Magico being built. Look and see how the Wilsons are even painted. Nothing short of a Ferrari is done that way. The attention to detail is second to none. Look at how they voice the speaker using a multitude of rooms, etc. etc. Then come back and tell us they're not innovative.

Really, it all boils down to results. The highest-performing speakers these days use innovative design and engineering tools, even if the designs themselves are more textbook than original. Using multiple rooms isn't exactly an advanced technique. Computer simulations of driver response, like Klippel testing, is. If you don't believe that is important, just look at driver break-up modes. If a driver in a modern speaker is breaking up within its passband, then it just isn't high performing. Period. There is a reason materials like diamond and beryllium and carbon fiber are used today . . .

You have to dig deeper than the finish to see these things.

mep · Jan 23, 2011

I would say Quad was innovative when they brought the ESL-57 to market. I would say that Magnepan was innovative when they brought their first speaker to market. I would agree that the Hill Plasmatronics was innovative but not practical for home use. I just think we need to agree on what innovative means for today's speaker manufacturers. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm just seeing incremental improvements on existing technology. And I don't mean to demean how incredibly well both Wilson and Magico build their speakers. Give credit where credit is due.

Maybe my defintion is too strict. Vandersteen devised a way to use balsa wood in his drivers. Wood pulp in speaker drivers has been around for quite awhile. Maybe if you use a new type of wood in your drivers that makes you innovative-maybe not. I could argue that you are just improving on something that has already been done.

MylesBAstor · Jan 23, 2011

Jeff Fritz said:
Really, it all boils down to results. The highest-performing speakers these days use innovative design and engineering tools, even if the designs themselves are more textbook than original. Using multiple rooms isn't exactly an advanced technique. Computer simulations of driver response, like Klippel testing, is. If you don't believe that is important, just look at driver break-up modes. If a driver in a modern speaker is breaking up within its passband, then it just isn't high performing. Period. There is a reason materials like diamond and beryllium and carbon fiber are used today . . .

You have to dig deeper than the finish to see these things.

I totally agree. And the multi-room is the last part of the design process, not the beginning

And yes, I think most leading high-end speaker designers use or create/modify (like Roger Sanders) their own measurement tools

But the question with driver technology is this: who is driving it? Does the speaker company give the design to the manufacturer or does the designer go to the manufacturer and say I want this and the manufacturer does the work? It's usually the latter. I think for instance the new driver Vandersteen is using that allows him to change his xover design is one example of this synergy.

ack · Jan 23, 2011

I personally always differentiate between innovation and skill... I have seen innovation (which to me always results in audible improvement) with respect to drivers, crossover parts and cabinets. The hot question is - what sort of innovation does a particular speaker manufacturer himself have to offer: matching drivers and crossover? building the cabinet? computer simulation of the overall speaker behavior? voicing against real instruments? Or is all this just _skill_, more than innovation?

I think there are some clear cut lines, others more blurry between innovation and skill. For example, to me, getting a paint job a la Ferrari is skill, not much innovation. Building an aluminum cabinet isn't innovation IFF it's done like everyone else in the past. In the case of Magico, it would appear their _recent_ cabinet construction is more than what everyone else has tried before (e.g. to me, the M6 is definitely not an example of recent efforts, as the speaker cavity is hollow), and I would call that innovation. Avoiding driver break-up modes is more of a skill than innovation... etc...

In the end, it's all about the final result. But again, is it because of innovation, skill, a mix of those, and to what degree is the speaker manufacturer himself responsible for the result, so he can claim ownership of the skill and/or innovation...

Some tantalizing rumors about Wilson and Magico

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