Preamps... nothing is perfect.

MadFloyd · Jun 24, 2018

Ron Resnick said:
Ian, is there anyway to hear each of your contenders in your own system?

Last week I voted, for myself, for the VTL TL-7.5 Series III with my wallet. (The fact that I had already decided on the Siegfried IIs just made my preamp decision even easier.)

I could buy them all.

It's not easy unfortunately. Maybe I could hear the Spectral since Goodwins carries it, but there are no local dealers for the others. Maybe I need to start a dealership.

In the past I have got units for audition thanks to some kind dealers that just charged me shipping (both ways) but that can be expensive so my hope was to narrow the list down to 1 or 2.

rockitman · Jun 24, 2018

MadFloyd said:
Why a tape loop, Christian? Do you record?

I have a pro parametric EQ (Millennia NESQ-4) for some live mic’d recorded music I have...usually electric bands that is recorded un-compressed. A little EQ tweak can make a huge difference in sound when played back on a home stereo. A tape loop keeps the EQ out of the signal chain unless it’s wanted. It is also handy for recording/dubbing.

MadFloyd · Jun 24, 2018

rockitman said:
I have a pro parametric EQ (Millennia NESQ-4) for some live mic’d recorded music I have...usually electric bands that is recorded un-compressed. A little EQ tweak can make a huge difference in sound when played back on a home stereo. A tape loop keeps the EQ out of the signal chain unless it’s wanted. It is also handy for recording/dubbing.

Ahh makes perfect sense, thanks.

microstrip · Jun 24, 2018

bonzo75 said:
I thought you were against ranking products in this hobby

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?25569-Goodbye-Vivaldi&p=513007&viewfull=1#post513007

Yes I am. Anyone reading the whole sense understands that your cut misquotes my whole sentence and changes its meaning. I was just telling how relative are our bests. Next time please add a smile and I will also smile!

microstrip said:
It is not how I read the review - IMHO it was written in a way each could say the same relative to his preferred.

I still have the GAT, GAT2 and REF40 in the same room. And my advice is that it depends mostly on source and amplifier. Many times when we already have a system we do not insert a new comportment by its qualities, but also by the absence of defects when inserted in the system.

IMHO the Vivaldi DCS system is by far the best DAC I have listened to. When using it the GAT 2 is my choice, although the REF40 is more real, but can expose some excessive sibilance and detail with some recordings. However if I use the Metronome Calypso/C2A DAC my choice is the ARC REF40. When using the Lamm M1.2s I prefer the Lamm preamplifier ...

MadFloyd · Jun 24, 2018

So....

Nobody has heard these preamps and or feels comfortable to critique them? I'm very disappointed. So much is debated on this forum but so little has to do with actual hifi gear.

KeithR · Jun 24, 2018

MadFloyd said:
So....

Nobody has heard these preamps and or feels comfortable to critique them? I'm very disappointed. So much is debated on this forum but so little has to do with actual hifi gear.

Because they are all quite different designs and house sounds. Most people wouldn’t demo all 4.

Just going by house sounds, the CJ is more like your CAT, the Spectral like CH/Soulution (and prob not a good match for a tube amp), and the VTL/Dart somewhat in between.

I’ve heard the 6.5 vs several preamps at a dealer and it wasn’t for me as it was kinda grey and dry. Then again, I never have really been impressed with VTL. I’ve heard the Dart numerous times in all Dart systems, but not with tubes. It excels in transparency, has a super extended but extraordinarily natural top end, while retaining harmonics and a midrange sweetness. Tube guys may not find it warm enough though.

So there is my attempt, sorry it’s not exactly what you want.

Ric Schultz · Jun 25, 2018

You guys should check out the "truth". Two of my friends have it and say it is the best they have ever heard.......it looks like nothing.....it sounds like nothing. It costs nothing. Nothing is good!
It is only single ended....you cannot get a balanced version. It has no gain. Buffers before and after the light attenuators.....done like nothing in the world before. Super high input impedance and super low output impedance. You can get it with remote and single input for around $1400? add a few more dollars for multiple inputs and silver wire. He probably has a money back guarantee.

http://www.thehornshoppe.com/the_truth_pre_amp.html

http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Linestages.html

http://www.high-endaudio.com/RECENT.html#Feb

GMKF · Jun 25, 2018

MadFloyd said:
So....

Nobody has heard these preamps and or feels comfortable to critique them? I'm very disappointed. So much is debated on this forum but so little has to do with actual hifi gear.

The Einstein Preamp is held in high esteem in Germany. In my opinion the Einstein bridges the gap between solid state and tubes very well.
I havent heard it in direct comparisons tho'.

bonzo75 · Jun 25, 2018

MadFloyd said:
So....

Nobody has heard these preamps and or feels comfortable to critique them? I'm very disappointed. So much is debated on this forum but so little has to do with actual hifi gear.

If people had actually heard gear, they would have made their choices easily and debated less.

Also, like many, I have heard all but not in the same system, or not compared them enough to know the attributes of some like the CJ. That qualifies me to debate since I don't have an informed opinion.

So all experiences will be irrelevant to your cause. But another point... Even if one had compared, it would still be irrelevant... Why?

Recently I found that Dartzeel, in the analog chain, did much better direct to the Alieno than via the Nat magnetostat (which worked very well for some stand some phonos). So why would you have Dartzeel in your shortlist, when you have the CH phono, and not the CH pre? A fair compare would only be Dartzeel vs the CH phono plus pre.

I think the AR ref 10 is fantastic, but for me personally, it does not work with 242 valves in the Lampi... Works great with the special 45s. So should I choose to maximize my digital chain, I will choose a pre that works well with my 242, like Aries cerat, while for a non Lampi user I might recommend the AR ref 10.

So, if you are trying to maximize your digital chain, you would be better off following the advice of a vivaldi user, since you own one, like microstrip. But I suspect you are looking to maximize your analog chain, so you will have to choose one that matches your cart, phono, well. I remember one of Tang's posts from last year, from his previous demo of CH, where he said the CH phono performs better with the CH pre. Gian will probably tell you the same.

I don't think you can maximize your digital and analog together with one pre, unless you get lucky. Getting the gain, impedance match, voltage drive, whatever it is, to match, takes systems to new levels of jump and drive with a drop in noise floor. This can be done only by trial and error. From a shortlist perspective, CH, AR ref 10, CJ, are all great. Also Koda

shakti · Jun 25, 2018

my current power amps are CAT Convergent JL3 Statement with KT 150 tubes. MY former JL3 had the Svetlana 6550c tubes.

The KT 150 tubes change the sonic signature of CAT amps in the direction of being al little more open and analytic in the frequency ends, in total they are more "neutral"
than with the 6550c tubes. I still like the 6550c tubes for their intimate and emotional midrange.

Combining the CAT JL 7 monos KT 150 tubes with a preamp depends in my opinion on the total set up, with a Spectral or similar pre, the sound becomes too dry and analytic, with the CAT Legend you get back a little bit the original 6550c sound (a little bit depending on the tubes used in the Legend)

My personal choice as preamp for the CAT statement with KT 150 was (still is) the Koda K10 MkII (means the actual version) preamplifier.

As the Koda was not mentioned at all, it might be an interesting alternative for the other PreAmps on the list, specially, if a Preamp with less tubes is preferred.

microstrip · Jun 25, 2018

Ron Resnick said:
(...) Last week I voted, for myself, for the VTL TL-7.5 Series III with my wallet. (The fact that I had already decided on the Siegfried IIs just made my preamp decision even easier.)

Congratulations - IMHO this approach will allow you to focus later mainly on fine tuning, not on correcting unexpected mismatches.

microstrip · Jun 25, 2018

MadFloyd said:
So....

Nobody has heard these preamps and or feels comfortable to critique them? I'm very disappointed. So much is debated on this forum but so little has to do with actual hifi gear.

IMHO it is very hard to foresee what these preamplfiers will sound in your system. A good friend has the M-Project and they sound quite different from any other Magico, and I can imagine that driving the CAT amplifier is critical - I could see it has only two 6DJ8 tubes as gain and drive elements for the 8 x KT150's, I can expect that the preamplfier will be critical.

MadFloyd · Jun 25, 2018

shakti said:
my current power amps are CAT Convergent JL3 Statement with KT 150 tubes. MY former JL3 had the Svetlana 6550c tubes.

The KT 150 tubes change the sonic signature of CAT amps in the direction of being al little more open and analytic in the frequency ends, in total they are more "neutral"
than with the 6550c tubes. I still like the 6550c tubes for their intimate and emotional midrange.

Combining the CAT JL 7 monos KT 150 tubes with a preamp depends in my opinion on the total set up, with a Spectral or similar pre, the sound becomes too dry and analytic, with the CAT Legend you get back a little bit the original 6550c sound (a little bit depending on the tubes used in the Legend)

My personal choice as preamp for the CAT statement with KT 150 was (still is) the Koda K10 MkII (means the actual version) preamplifier.

As the Koda was not mentioned at all, it might be an interesting alternative for the other PreAmps on the list, specially, if a Preamp with less tubes is preferred.

Thank you very much. Yes, I find my CAT amps fairly neutral, especially for tube amps and attribute a lot of that to the KT 150s. And, my sound now with the passive pre is absolutely dry and analytical.

I have never heard the Koda myself, but of course have read wonderful things about it. I'm not sure it's within my means.

It's very interesting to hear from someone that uses CAT amps with a non-CAT preamp.

MadFloyd · Jun 25, 2018

microstrip said:
IMHO it is very hard to foresee what these preamplfiers will sound in your system. A good friend has the M-Project and they sound quite different from any other Magico, and I can imagine that driving the CAT amplifier is critical - I could see it has only two 6DJ8 tubes as gain and drive elements for the 8 x KT150's, I can expect that the preamplfier will be critical.

That is why I'm asking questions about the sonic attributes of these preamps so I can try to predict how a preamp will mate with my amps, speakers and room. I'm not asking anyone else to make that prediction (although I don't mind if they want to try).

MadFloyd · Jun 25, 2018

KeithR said:
Because they are all quite different designs and house sounds. Most people wouldn’t demo all 4.

Just going by house sounds, the CJ is more like your CAT, the Spectral like CH/Soulution (and prob not a good match for a tube amp), and the VTL/Dart somewhat in between.

I’ve heard the 6.5 vs several preamps at a dealer and it wasn’t for me as it was kinda grey and dry. Then again, I never have really been impressed with VTL. I’ve heard the Dart numerous times in all Dart systems, but not with tubes. It excels in transparency, has a super extended but extraordinarily natural top end, while retaining harmonics and a midrange sweetness. Tube guys may not find it warm enough though.

So there is my attempt, sorry it’s not exactly what you want.

Thanks for your thoughts, Keith. To be clear, I'm not expecting that someone can describe how all 4 preamps differ, I'd be happy if someone could just describe the attributes of one of them - as you just did for the 6.5 and the Dart.

And by the way, I think you're wrong about CJ being anything like my CAT. I think they changed their house sound some years ago.

bonzo75 · Jun 25, 2018

On stand alone sonic attributes I would go with AR ref 10.

zerostargeneral · Jun 25, 2018

Audiopax L50.

Ron Resnick · Jun 25, 2018

Ian, if you are trying to move away from the dry and analytical maybe consider the Aesthetix Callisto?

(The output impedance of the Callisto is 350 ohms, versus the 100 ohm output impedance of a CAT SL-1 preamp.)

PeterA · Jun 25, 2018

Ric Schultz said:
You guys should check out the "truth". Two of my friends have it and say it is the best they have ever heard.......it looks like nothing.....it sounds like nothing. It costs nothing. Nothing is good!
It is only single ended....you cannot get a balanced version. It has no gain. Buffers before and after the light attenuators.....done like nothing in the world before. Super high input impedance and super low output impedance. You can get it with remote and single input for around $1400? add a few more dollars for multiple inputs and silver wire. He probably has a money back guarantee.

http://www.thehornshoppe.com/the_truth_pre_amp.html

http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Linestages.html

http://www.high-endaudio.com/RECENT.html#Feb

This looks very interesting. It kind of reminds me of my old Pass Aleph P. I love the simple black case and silver knobs. I also like the simplicity of it and enjoyed reading your links. I think Ian is looking for adding gain from his preamp for added drive and dynamics which it seems are lacking from his current passive device. I would love to hear this "Truth" in the right system. Is Al M. reading this?

microstrip · Jun 25, 2018

MadFloyd said:
That is why I'm asking questions about the sonic attributes of these preamps so I can try to predict how a preamp will mate with my amps, speakers and room. I'm not asking anyone else to make that prediction (although I don't mind if they want to try).

Please read the excellent review of the GAT-2 carried by Jacob Heilbrunn in TAS. http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/conrad-johnson-gat-series-2-preamplifier-and-tea1-series-2-phono-preamplifier/. I fully agree with his views, and he does a great job describes its sonic attributes.

BTW, how does your CAT amplifier implement the balanced input?

Preamps... nothing is perfect.

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