Berkeley Audio DAC Series 2 or Naim DAC. Or?

Al M.

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I have to say you’ve sent me off reading endlessly about Yggdrasil! I can’t help but like what is said about it, but I still have the impression it might be a little too much of a good thing for my taste. I also don’t like that it doesn’t do DSD, but I really think that’s temporary. It remains a candidate. Your other suggestion sounds interesting and much worth looking into, but frustratingly is limited in processing high res. Nevertheless, thanks for the good tip!

You're welcome, Echolane! Reading will not get you too far, the only thing that really helps is listen, and preferably in your own system. Best to get a DAC on a 14-day trial period. Yet you said:

"I like my new Triode TRV-CD5SE. You can flip a toggle to listen with or without tubes, but I can’t honestly say I can hear much of a difference."

If that's the case, you don't seem to need tube sound. If you like the player, why buy something else? It also seems to have a 24/192 capable DAC.

I wouldn't get hung up on formats beyond Redbook, and on DSD. Well decoded Redbook easily beats 'high res' formats on lesser DACs. I listen to Redbook exclusively. It is a format that features absolutely astounding resolution. Redbook IS a high resolution format. Many DACs don't handle it too well.

You will hardly get native DSD anyway, most DSD is processed via PCM stages, so I ask myself, why bother. See this white paper on the 'DSD myth':

https://www.grimmaudio.com/site/assets/files/1088/dsd_myth.pdf
 
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Echolane

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New development!!

This might be premature and in the end may not be definitive, but it just occurred to me to try the DAC I just bought for my Windows 7 desktop. It’s the Audio Alchemy DDP-1 with its upgraded PS-5 power supply. It’s purpose was to act as an external sound card, or USB DAC, at my computer. It’s expensive as far as my computer is concerned but it never occurred to me to even consider it for my Quad system, for it, it is relatively inexpensive. But I have had problems with drivers for it at my computer so I’ve yet to hear it - it’s been very frustrating! I thought I’d make sure it works by trying it with my Quad system.

My only digital source at present is my CD player so I have sent an optical cable from CD player to Audio Alchemy DAC and switched the RCAs that were connected from the Triode to the amp to the Audio Alchemy. It’s now just a source to my Audiomat amp with the Triode as it’s digital source.

I was immediately pleased that it didn’t sound distinctly digital at all. And almost in that same instance I had to acknowledge it was really really good! So much more than not digital sounding. It’s livened up my whole system! I think it might be noticeably better than the Triode. My Quads are really singing. It’s both sweet sounding and precise, extremely pleasing, rhythmical, musical, realistic. My singers sound almost as though live. The female singers sometimes give me Musical chills. I’m shocked. Really shocked. And very pleased.

There is no shortage of complimentary reviews.

Absolute Sound gives it a really good review comparing it to a $4000 stand alone DAC.
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/art...lifier-and-dpa-1m-monoblock-power-amplifiers/

HifiPlus compared it to products costing much more, but before that says lots of favorable things about its infectious musicality.

http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/au...-ps-5-power-supply-and-dpa-1-power-amplifier/

Another great review this time focusing attention on the design engineer, Peter Madnick, who is apparently a very well regarded audio engineer.

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/...my-DDP-1-DAC-Preamp-PS-5-Power-Supply-Review/

Audio Adviser says The DDP-1 won an Editors' Choice Award for 2016 from The Absolute Sound magazine. "This versatile DAC and preamplifier from the new Audio Alchemy is a real winner, offering superb sound quality, extensive features, and an outstanding musical interface," notes the March 2016 issue.

Enough of what everyone else says. I like it a lot and need to listen a lot more. I am handicapped by having sent off most of my CDs to be ripped, so my most familiar music is not here to choose. Can’t help but wonder if there is better out there though. Having this DAC gives me courage to want to experiment more because I now have something to use for comparison. Though something else will have to be pretty good to beat both the sound and the price.

It even decodes DSD.

Have any of you heard it or auditioned it?
 
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Echolane

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You're welcome, Echolane! Reading will not get you too far, the only thing that really helps is listen, and preferably in your own system. Best to get a DAC on a 14-day trial period. Yet you said:

"I like my new Triode TRV-CD5SE. You can flip a toggle to listen with or without tubes, but I can’t honestly say I can hear much of a difference."

If that's the case, you don't seem to need tube sound. If you like the player, why buy something else? It also seems to have a 24/192 capable DAC.

I wouldn't get hung up on formats beyond Redbook, and on DSD. Well decoded Redbook easily beats 'high res' formats on lesser DACs. I listen to Redbook exclusively. It is a format that features absolutely astounding resolution. Redbook IS a high resolution format. Many DACs don't handle it too well.

You will hardly get native DSD anyway, most DSD is processed via PCM stages, so I ask myself, why bother. See this white paper on the 'DSD myth':

https://www.grimmaudio.com/site/assets/files/1088/dsd_myth.pdf

Now I am going way over my head.... to the extent that I could understand this very technical article I was persuaded that DSD is superior to PCM. Though it didn’t discuss listening tests at all! But it does imply that if you listen to DSD by a processs that first converts it back to PCM, it may explain why DSD is not as well regarded by some. I was particularly struck by the argument that converting DSD to PCM before playing was a particularly bad thing to do. I might add at this point that the Berkeley does that very thing. As apparently do many other DACs. But having stepped into this controversial topic, perhaps someone with more math and engineering can make a better argument for or against this point of view than I. I noticed that this article isn’t referenced by Google when searching for DSD vs PCM so it might be something you (and others) might not have come across.

https://medium.com/@jolon/thoughts-on-dsd-3fc9aaff8548

The Grimm article was very technical too! It did make it clearer why degrading conversions are so often necessary.

BTW, I completely agree that listening is the only way to find the truth about a component because one’s ears and tastes plus speakers and component players all play a part in how something will sound. But it helps me to read to get a starting point.
 
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Al M.

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The Grimm article was very technical too! It did make it clearer why degrading conversions are so often necessary.

...which obliterates the argument that DSD is superior to PCM. There just aren't that many native DSD recordings where conversion to PCM and back has never taken place at any stage.

Here is another article on this, which is also not a fan of DSD even in native form:

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/ap...-dsd-provides-a-direct-stream-from-a-d-to-d-a

My own experiences with DSD are a mixed bag. Sometimes great, sometimes less so. In any case, my ears have yet to be convinced that DSD has something magical or 'better' that PCM lacks.

BTW, I completely agree that listening is the only way to find the truth about a component because one’s ears and tastes plus speakers and component players all play a part in how something will sound. But it helps me to read to get a starting point.

Yes, that's how I got to make the plunge into trying the Yggdrasil DAC.
 
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Al M.

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Echolane

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No, but congratulations on a great sounding DAC!

Thanks! But the analytical analytical me can’t stop asking what might be better!?!?
 

Al M.

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Dr Tone

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I have at least 300 DSD version of albums along with the PCM version. I haven't missed them one bit since getting the Yggdrasil.
 

Echolane

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I have at least 300 DSD version of albums along with the PCM version. I haven't missed them one bit since getting the Yggdrasil.

Thanks much for the encouragement!
 

Echolane

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In fact, thanks much to all who have guided me on this topic. I feel like I’ve learned a lot. When I began the topic it never occurred to me to try the Audio Alchemy in my living room Quad system. Much to my complete surprise, it turned out to be a happy accident. Though now I need a DAC for my computer. But that’s another topic.

Thanks again!!
 

microstrip

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(...) My own experiences with DSD are a mixed bag. Sometimes great, sometimes less so. In any case, my ears have yet to be convinced that DSD has something magical or 'better' that PCM lacks. (...)

If by your ambiguous PCM statement you mean redbook, for me there is no doubt - in the Vivaldi the best SACD's are significantly better than the equivalent redbook CD layers. And when comparing files, the available DXD sounds better than the redbook.
 

caesar

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I have been too timid to dip my toes into power conditioning. But that said, I have a friend who has very educated ears and has recently added his first power conditioner and he raves about the difference it’s made. I believe his brand was Isotek. He shops at an Audio store where all their gear is connected to that brand, and they claim it’s for good reason. So I plan to get around to this when I get settled with my new streaming gear. One thing at a time.

Yes, absolutely no rush on this - as long as you are aware that there is "more". And in this hobby, there is always more to be "squeezed out" of what you have.
 

caesar

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Thanks! But the analytical analytical me can’t stop asking what might be better!?!?

Yes, this is one of those annoying, irking things in this hobby for those of us who want the best for our taste regardless of what loud forum members, dealers, and reviewers may recommend.

In an otherwise intellectually-shallow hobby, where most people, and especially the reviewers, in effect scream every time "THIS IS THE BEST BECAUSE I LIKE IT! AND I'M IMPORTANT", here is an excellent article addressing the psychological aspects of what you address: https://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/are_you_a_sharpener_or_a_leveler/index.html

But to answer your question in a practical sense, there is no real way to tell without direct experience of the components or by communicating with those whom you have had many shared experiences, who understand your taste, and can share the same vocabulary of the abstract audio terms.

As I mentioned in a previous post, you really can't trust reviewers. The guys' reviews you bring up above rarely compare, and they could care less if you, as a customer, are happy, as long as manufacturers keep sending them free gear for long term loans. These guys don't understand subjectivity on a deep intellectual level and because of misaligned incentives don't really care that consumers are happy as long as they are fed. And furthermore, great reviews are usually great only to those who share the reviewer's taste or psychological state. Rave reviews from many individuals with very diverse tastes are more telling...

So if you really want to find out if there is stuff that is best, you need a list of potential contenders. Then you need to buy a couple of contenders, and listen to them over several weeks. Sell the one you didn't like, and buy the next on your list...continue until you are comfortable... Or just be a leveler...
 

Al M.

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Yes, this is one of those annoying, irking things in this hobby for those of us who want the best for our taste regardless of what loud forum members, dealers, and reviewers may recommend.

In an otherwise intellectually-shallow hobby, where most people, and especially the reviewers, in effect scream every time "THIS IS THE BEST BECAUSE I LIKE IT! AND I'M IMPORTANT", here is an excellent article addressing the psychological aspects of what you address: https://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/are_you_a_sharpener_or_a_leveler/index.html

But to answer your question in a practical sense, there is no real way to tell without direct experience of the components or by communicating with those whom you have had many shared experiences, who understand your taste, and can share the same vocabulary of the abstract audio terms.

As I mentioned in a previous post, you really can't trust reviewers. The guys' reviews you bring up above rarely compare, and they could care less if you, as a customer, are happy, as long as manufacturers keep sending them free gear for long term loans. These guys don't understand subjectivity on a deep intellectual level and because of misaligned incentives don't really care that consumers are happy as long as they are fed. And furthermore, great reviews are usually great only to those who share the reviewer's taste or psychological state. Rave reviews from many individuals with very diverse tastes are more telling...

So if you really want to find out if there is stuff that is best, you need a list of potential contenders. Then you need to buy a couple of contenders, and listen to them over several weeks. Sell the one you didn't like, and buy the next on your list...continue until you are comfortable... Or just be a leveler...

Good points, Caesar.

Echolane, I have suggested before to buy the Yggdrasil, and if you don't like it, send it back after the 15-day trial period for a $ 120 restocking fee (ok, plus shipping). Then you will have satisfied your curiosity for a decently low price. And if you like it (I looove mine...), the better!

Or otherwise simply stick with the Audio Alchemy, given how much you like it.
 

Echolane

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Good points, Caesar.

Echolane, I have suggested before to buy the Yggdrasil, and if you don't like it, send it back after the 15-day trial period for a $ 120 restocking fee (ok, plus shipping). Then you will have satisfied your curiosity for a decently low price. And if you like it (I looove mine...), the better!

Or otherwise simply stick with the Audio Alchemy, given how much you like it.

I’ve been inclined to stick with the Audio Alchemy, mainly because it’s easiest. I was aided and abetted by someone on another forum that has compared both the Berkeley and the Yggdrasil to my Audio Alchemy and preferred the Audio Alchemy. But as is my wont, I can’t stop reading and exploring and this whole DSD vs PCM topic continues to bother me. Regardless of which sounds better, I refuse to comment because I lack experience to comment. But I do feel there is something inherently wrong with the common practice of converting back and forth between DSD and PCM. I instinctively believe that if it was recorded as DSD it should be played as DSD and the same with PCM. I rather quickly learned that one of the biggest roadblocks to doing that is that there are very few DACs that do. When I did a google search for DACs that process DSD in native DSD I didn’t turn up anything directly, though it did lead me to a number of interesting articles in the subject, none of them definitive.

Nevertheless, I did finally turn up a DAC that does process PCM as PCM and DSD as DSD. Al, you might enjoy this article I came across. It’s from an opinionated source and they are not bashful in letting you know what they think. Their main product seems to be an audiocentric PC, including a proprietary motherboard, a linear power supply and much more. They are quite opinionated about DACs and have been promoting their favorite DACs, the Berkeley Audio, the $12k one, and the Schiit Yggdrasil. However, more recently, they have named a competitor to those two DACs. It comes from a German company, the T + A Electroakustik DAC 8 DSD.

http://www.baetisaudio.com/we_sell_more.php. Scroll down a bit to the heading DAC.

The German DAC is reviewed here: https://www.stereophile.com/content/ta-elektroakustik-dac-8-dsd-da-processor

This business of being an audiophile is maddening. There is always something to be chasing...... it is very tempting to want to try both the Yggdrasil and the T + A.
 

abeidrov

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I’ve been inclined to stick with the Audio Alchemy, mainly because it’s easiest. I was aided and abetted by someone on another forum that has compared both the Berkeley and the Yggdrasil to my Audio Alchemy and preferred the Audio Alchemy. But as is my wont, I can’t stop reading and exploring and this whole DSD vs PCM topic continues to bother me. Regardless of which sounds better, I refuse to comment because I lack experience to comment. But I do feel there is something inherently wrong with the common practice of converting back and forth between DSD and PCM. I instinctively believe that if it was recorded as DSD it should be played as DSD and the same with PCM. I rather quickly learned that one of the biggest roadblocks to doing that is that there are very few DACs that do. When I did a google search for DACs that process DSD in native DSD I didn’t turn up anything directly, though it did lead me to a number of interesting articles in the subject, none of them definitive.

Nevertheless, I did finally turn up a DAC that does process PCM as PCM and DSD as DSD. Al, you might enjoy this article I came across. It’s from an opinionated source and they are not bashful in letting you know what they think. Their main product seems to be an audiocentric PC, including a proprietary motherboard, a linear power supply and much more. They are quite opinionated about DACs and have been promoting their favorite DACs, the Berkeley Audio, the $12k one, and the Schiit Yggdrasil. However, more recently, they have named a competitor to those two DACs. It comes from a German company, the T + A Electroakustik DAC 8 DSD.

http://www.baetisaudio.com/we_sell_more.php. Scroll down a bit to the heading DAC.

The German DAC is reviewed here: https://www.stereophile.com/content/ta-elektroakustik-dac-8-dsd-da-processor

This business of being an audiophile is maddening. There is always something to be chasing...... it is very tempting to want to try both the Yggdrasil and the T + A.

Hi Echolane,
The T+A DAC 8 DSD is known for its excellent DSD performance, so most people, who have it, convert everything to DSD512. But you must have a very powerful computer or a server in order to do this conversion on the fly. Something like SGM 2015 or Antipodes CX or Lampizator Superkomputer would work.
What you say about native processing of PCM and DSD is valid, but the end result may vary. The realization and how it works together are more important, than any other single thing in a dac, be it a chip, filters or no filters, the way it processes PCM and DSD or any other single design decision. I've recently had an opportunity to audition Aqua Formula xHD dac. Very nice DAC for both PCM and DSD, despite the fact, that it does not support DSD natively and converts it to PCM. Lampizator is another example of SOTA DSD dac, but in case of Lampi DSD is processed natively.
Aziz
 

Al M.

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I’ve been inclined to stick with the Audio Alchemy, mainly because it’s easiest. I was aided and abetted by someone on another forum that has compared both the Berkeley and the Yggdrasil to my Audio Alchemy and preferred the Audio Alchemy. But as is my wont, I can’t stop reading and exploring and this whole DSD vs PCM topic continues to bother me. Regardless of which sounds better, I refuse to comment because I lack experience to comment. But I do feel there is something inherently wrong with the common practice of converting back and forth between DSD and PCM. I instinctively believe that if it was recorded as DSD it should be played as DSD and the same with PCM. I rather quickly learned that one of the biggest roadblocks to doing that is that there are very few DACs that do. When I did a google search for DACs that process DSD in native DSD I didn’t turn up anything directly, though it did lead me to a number of interesting articles in the subject, none of them definitive.

Nevertheless, I did finally turn up a DAC that does process PCM as PCM and DSD as DSD. Al, you might enjoy this article I came across. It’s from an opinionated source and they are not bashful in letting you know what they think. Their main product seems to be an audiocentric PC, including a proprietary motherboard, a linear power supply and much more. They are quite opinionated about DACs and have been promoting their favorite DACs, the Berkeley Audio, the $12k one, and the Schiit Yggdrasil. However, more recently, they have named a competitor to those two DACs. It comes from a German company, the T + A Electroakustik DAC 8 DSD.

http://www.baetisaudio.com/we_sell_more.php. Scroll down a bit to the heading DAC.

The German DAC is reviewed here: https://www.stereophile.com/content/ta-elektroakustik-dac-8-dsd-da-processor

This business of being an audiophile is maddening. There is always something to be chasing...... it is very tempting to want to try both the Yggdrasil and the T + A.

Very interesting opinions, thanks, Echolane. I like the Baetis idea, and it is the only server that I would even consider. AES/EBU is a must for me.

They say;
"The Schiit DAC has no volume control of its own, and we have auditioned it with Schiit’s own Freya model of volume control (a pre-amp in the analog domain). The sum of these two boxes costs $2990. We think these two boxes dominate most of the highly-rated DACs with volume controls in the $5000-$10k range. And, when we audition these boxes, the AES input of the Schiit is significantly better than its USB input (a fact that the manufacturers themselves might not appreciate, since they say in their marketing materials "try USB, you’ll like it".)."

They don't know enough to make the statement between brackets. Fact is, Mike Moffat, the designer of the Schiit Yggdrasil, greatly prefers the AES/EBU connection and finds USB well, schiit ;). Not quite anymore with the new USB Gen 5 upgrade to the DAC, which I am not sure Baetis has auditioned, but still. I connect the DAC to my excellent CD transport via MIT SL-Matrix Plus AES/EBU digital cable. I doubt that many have heard what the Yggdrasil really can do, because I think that this set-up is hard to beat (perhaps it is by a top-range Baetis server via the same digital cable).

As for DSD, I personally have zero interest, zilch, nada. As I said before, there is hardly any native DSD because almost all of it is mastered in PCM, so the conversion issues becomes moot anyway. But if you think DSD is important, by all means try to audition the T+A DAC.
 

Echolane

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Very interesting opinions, thanks, Echolane. I like the Baetis idea, and it is the only server that I would even consider. AES/EBU is a must for me.

As for DSD, I personally have zero interest, zilch, nada. As I said before, there is hardly any native DSD because almost all of it is mastered in PCM, so the conversion issues becomes moot anyway. But if you think DSD is important, by all means try to audition the T+A DAC.

Al, I thought you’d enjoy reading that :).

As I’ve learned over the past two days, we are living in a music download world dominated by PCM. DSD downloads are scarce! Live and learn...... ! I have a friend ripping CDs for me. My friend suggested I find some hi res music for him to put on my Naim SSD so I could hear the contrast between CD resolution and higher res music. So I’ve been trying to find DSD sources to my taste to download. Much to my surprise I found there just aren’t that many DSD choices and even far fewer that I’m willing to buy. What’s more I couldn’t tell which, if any, were created as native DSD. Of course one can buy plenty of SACDs, but they are an extra challenge or expense to rip, and it’s perhaps just as difficult to discover if they are native DSD. So I agree the DSD vs PCM issue is moot and entirely theoretical for now. Which also means a native DSD capable DAC is completely off my radar for now too.
 

abeidrov

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Al, I thought you’d enjoy reading that :).

As I’ve learned over the past two days, we are living in a music download world dominated by PCM. DSD downloads are scarce! Live and learn...... ! I have a friend ripping CDs for me. My friend suggested I find some hi res music for him to put on my Naim SSD so I could hear the contrast between CD resolution and higher res music. So I’ve been trying to find DSD sources to my taste to download. Much to my surprise I found there just aren’t that many DSD choices and even far fewer that I’m willing to buy. What’s more I couldn’t tell which, if any, were created as native DSD. Of course one can buy plenty of SACDs, but they are an extra challenge or expense to rip, and it’s perhaps just as difficult to discover if they are native DSD. So I agree the DSD vs PCM issue is moot and entirely theoretical for now. Which also means a native DSD capable DAC is completely off my radar for now too.
It's a pity, you have not found relevant DSD recordings. In my experience and with my DAC, most DSD recordings are superior to PCM. As a Tidal user, I almost do not by PCM files, but when I see a quality DSD download at High Definition Tape Transfers or at Native DSD, it's very difficult to resist. I am mostly into Jazz and Classical, so your case may be very different.
 

Al M.

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Al, I thought you’d enjoy reading that :).

As I’ve learned over the past two days, we are living in a music download world dominated by PCM. DSD downloads are scarce! Live and learn...... ! I have a friend ripping CDs for me. My friend suggested I find some hi res music for him to put on my Naim SSD so I could hear the contrast between CD resolution and higher res music. So I’ve been trying to find DSD sources to my taste to download. Much to my surprise I found there just aren’t that many DSD choices and even far fewer that I’m willing to buy. What’s more I couldn’t tell which, if any, were created as native DSD. Of course one can buy plenty of SACDs, but they are an extra challenge or expense to rip, and it’s perhaps just as difficult to discover if they are native DSD. So I agree the DSD vs PCM issue is moot and entirely theoretical for now. Which also means a native DSD capable DAC is completely off my radar for now too.

Echolane, apparently you had the same reaction as myself to the logic of the argument that most DSD goes through PCM mixing/mastering stages. For some strange reason, many people don't.

And it's true, there is not that much DSD out there, and not even on SACD which is still the most popular DSD format. This is also the reason why I never jumped on the SACD format -- I did not want a format to limit my musical choices. In hindsight I consider it one of the best decisions of my audiophile life to never have invested time, effort and money into the SACD format.
 
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