Endgame pre-power or Int recommendations

Loheswaran

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Dec 19, 2014
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Oh man really are they that hard to drive,....far from a compliment lol.
Like saying my speakers are so good and demanding they need at least a 200 k amp, they Will pull up the nose for anything less.

I have heard magicos a few times - to my ears they were respectable, controlled and a bit dull, stuck on the end of some constellations they just came alive. I also heard soulution and was equally impressed.
 

andromedaaudio

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How tastes can differ , ime the solution /magico combo was a business / importer combination.
I like some magicos but only on tubes
 

Loheswaran

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How tastes can differ , ime the solution /magico combo was a business / importer combination.
I like some magicos but only on tubes

That is funny indeed. I have to say I have a soft spot for Solid State - so long as they are not cold (hence I retain the services of my trusty LAvardin IT) - I must say that I keep flirting with the idea of tubes - that said I have spent a lot of money getting a dedicated audio room built, so no money to spend for awhile
 

Thieliste

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From what I have heard of the two brands, I would take a Ypsilon every day of the week and twice on Sunday over Vitus or Luxman. Maybe the Vivid is a tough load but one of hte worst Vivid demos I heard was with big Luxman monos, clean and transparent, yes but completely tone deaf and soulless. Vitus has a rather dark sound IMO where they seem to have deliberately voiced the amps to sound this way (reminds me of the BAT VK 200 SS amp I had). Haven't head the Mephisto but if it sounds like other Gryphon amps then it is lacking in Verve and dynamics.

All your suggestions are not really considering the ultra-revealing nature of the Thiel CS3.7. My partner has this speaker so I have several years experience listening to this speaker regularly with a very wide array of amplifiers. I can tell you that most of your suggestions will not give a satisfying sound as the highs will be revealed to be rather coarse with most of them. It is a quite analytical sounding speaker and needs truly pristine highs from the electronics not to sound relentless.

It is funny because we found that it fell flat with some PP tubes (KR VA880 for example and Octave monos sounded bright and edgy) some SETs (my JJ did not do a good job on it) and low powered SS (Pass XA30.5) and high powered SS (McIntosh MC-501 monos) but rocked with some others like the cheap and cheerful PureSound A30 (even in 18 watt Class A triode mode), VAC 30/30 (awesome bass...really), NAT Symbiosis SE, KR VA350, Cayin 845 SET monos (up to moderate volumes), Wall Audio Opus M50 monos, Line Magnetic monos (can't remember the model but with 845 output tubes), Aries Cerat Diana integrated and Diana Forte.

The FM demos that I have heard at Munich are ok but not inspiring for the kind of money they are asking. The use of the word excellent here is more than a bit of hyperbole...

CAT is about the only recommendation on your list I can get on board with, sorry to say; however, I don't know how you can recommend Luxman or Vitus and CAT in the same post...they sound nothing alike and CAT is far superior in nearly every way to the other two if you really care about realistic sounding music.

Given that we have had very good experience with hybrids on the Thiel, I don't see Ypsilon as a problematic choice and is likely to sound good given how i have heard the highs from their amps (Aelius, Hyperion and Phaeton are the ones I have heard now multiple times and almost always sounding very good...can't say the same for your other choices).

Hi morricab thanks for sharing your experience with the same speakers i own and a certain number of different amps and confirmation that Ypsilon is a good match with Thiel speakers.
I wanted to ask you how the Aries Cerat Diana integrated reacted with the CS 3.7s, does it have enough juice to drive them properly ?
Or is the Kronzilla SXI more appropriate for my speakers ? there is a dealer in Paris that carries both integrated so i could make a first audition.
The P130 - Kronzilla DXL could be another crazy alternative too.
I would prefer to keep the pre-power budget within €50K.
 

KeithR

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the 3.7s spend alot of time between 2 and 3 ohms. there's a reason Jim Thiel used Krell to design with...

the only tube amp I'd try on them is the CAT - which is basically designed for such speakers with low impedances.
 
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Thieliste

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the 3.7s spend alot of time between 2 and 3 ohms. there's a reason Jim Thiel used Krell to design with...

the only tube amp I'd try on them is the CAT - which is basically designed for such speakers with low impedances.

Problem with brands like Krell and Bryston for example and the fact that i don't like them is that they mostly have huge amount of power but lack the refinement that the 3.7s absolutely need to sing and avoid the brightness in the trebel.
I much prefer brands like ASR and Aesthetix with the 3.7s.
 

paul79

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www.manymoonsaudio.com
You should add Accuphase to your list. This company has been around for a long time for a reason. Based on what I think you are looking for, these should fit the bill nicely. Open, warm, and organic.
 

andromedaaudio

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From all the posts i Read and that it Will only sound good with some amps, it seems to me the speaker is the culprit it has a problem in the highs/tweeter not the other way around.
Typical audiophile problem solving is aplied then, switch everything until the sound is acceptable ,Amps cables digital even music being played on the system.
 
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Loheswaran

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Dec 19, 2014
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Dear Thealiste

How about a Neodio? - you ought to get a good audition - given that Neodio are French.
Also consider BERNING OTL as they are specced to drive loads down to 2 ohm (possibly less) - it may be load tolerance and quality as opposed to all out WPC - what amp have you got at present?

thanks

Loheswaran
 

Thieliste

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Dear Thealiste

How about a Neodio? - you ought to get a good audition - given that Neodio are French.
Also consider BERNING OTL as they are specced to drive loads down to 2 ohm (possibly less) - it may be load tolerance and quality as opposed to all out WPC - what amp have you got at present?

thanks

Loheswaran

Thanks but Neodio only have an integrated, not much choice and Berning is indeed very good but poor distribution.
Right now i only use a modest Classé CAP-151 so that my speakers don't stay unused in my office.
I will be mooving to a new house and build a dedicated listening room with room treatment within the next 2 years.
I called KR Audio's distributor and he happens to live just an hour drive from my place so i will make an appointment to go audion the Kronzilla DX monos with P130 preamp.
 

christoph

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Dec 11, 2015
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Hi Thieliste

I called KR Audio's distributor and he happens to live just an hour drive from my place so i will make an appointment to go audion the Kronzilla DX monos with P130 preamp.

I would also only go tubes with your Thiel 3.7.

If you choose to go KR Audio seperates, I would definitely go with the "new" P135 preamp with 45 tubes instead of the "old" P130.
That little bugger surprised us a LOT.

But my best reasonable choice would probably be the KR Kronzilla SXi. That combo could match pretty heavenly (I do have the 'Zilla SX poweramp myself)
 

Thieliste

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Hi Thieliste



I would also only go tubes with your Thiel 3.7.

If you choose to go KR Audio seperates, I would definitely go with the "new" P135 preamp with 45 tubes instead of the "old" P130.
That little bugger surprised us a LOT.

But my best reasonable choice would probably be the KR Kronzilla SXi. That combo could match pretty heavenly (I do have the 'Zilla SX poweramp myself)

Hi christoph and thanks for your input, do know the prices in € of the DX monos and the P135 preamp ?
 

Thieliste

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Hi Thieliste



I would also only go tubes with your Thiel 3.7.

If you choose to go KR Audio seperates, I would definitely go with the "new" P135 preamp with 45 tubes instead of the "old" P130.
That little bugger surprised us a LOT.

But my best reasonable choice would probably be the KR Kronzilla SXi. That combo could match pretty heavenly (I do have the 'Zilla SX poweramp myself)

I have another question : do you think going full KR Audio separates would le better than let's say mixing Kronzilla DX with a VAC Signature MKII SE or a VTL 6.5 Series II Sig for example ?
 

KeithR

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I have another question : do you think going full KR Audio separates would le better than let's say mixing Kronzilla DX with a VAC Signature MKII SE or a VTL 6.5 Series II Sig for example ?

what's the Kronzilla output and distortion at 2 ohms? SETs aren't designed for this - they typically want 8 ohms flat.

in fact, my guess is its only 12-15 watts between 2 and 3 ohms. read the measurements here - which say 8 ohm speaker with 6 ohm minimum is ideal.

http://i.nextmedia.com.au/avhub/aus...nzilla_sx_amplifier_review_and_test_lores.pdf
 

jasbirnandra

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Apr 3, 2012
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Hi morricab thanks for sharing your experience with the same speakers i own and a certain number of different amps and confirmation that Ypsilon is a good match with Thiel speakers.
I wanted to ask you how the Aries Cerat Diana integrated reacted with the CS 3.7s, does it have enough juice to drive them properly ?
Or is the Kronzilla SXI more appropriate for my speakers ? there is a dealer in Paris that carries both integrated so i could make a first audition.
The P130 - Kronzilla DXL could be another crazy alternative too.
I would prefer to keep the pre-power budget within €50K.

If you want to spend 50K euros nothing better than Ypsilon Pre power or CAT amps IMHO
 

morricab

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Apr 25, 2014
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Hi morricab thanks for sharing your experience with the same speakers i own and a certain number of different amps and confirmation that Ypsilon is a good match with Thiel speakers.
I wanted to ask you how the Aries Cerat Diana integrated reacted with the CS 3.7s, does it have enough juice to drive them properly ?
Or is the Kronzilla SXI more appropriate for my speakers ? there is a dealer in Paris that carries both integrated so i could make a first audition.
The P130 - Kronzilla DXL could be another crazy alternative too.
I would prefer to keep the pre-power budget within €50K.

The Aries Cerat Diana Integrated and Diana Forte (with Incito and Impera preamps) are the two best amps we have tried on the Thiels...period. Both deal effortlessly with the speakers in a 35 square meter room up to quite high volumes without audible strain. For pre-power, the Aries Cerat Impera or Incito S + Concero 65 monos are just about your budget limit and would be the best AC sound. The AC amps have low output impedances and very high capacity, low impedance, power supplies so that delivery of needed energy is close to instantaneous in a way I haven't heard with other amps. Dynamics you thought stopped on the recording keep going and you realize it was the gear, not the recording that was limiting the dynamic envelope.

I was a dealer for KR Audio in the past and while I really like how they sound I cannot say they are a better choice for the Thiels between them and Aries Cerat. However, I encourage you to demo both, if possible, before deciding. They do sound different enough that one could form a preference for one or the other regardless of apparent drive etc. Also, I have never tried the larger KRs (like DX monos) on the Thiels so YMMV.

You can of course come and hear an all AC setup with Thiels here at our listening room.
 

Thieliste

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Aug 31, 2014
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The Aries Cerat Diana Integrated and Diana Forte (with Incito and Impera preamps) are the two best amps we have tried on the Thiels...period. Both deal effortlessly with the speakers in a 35 square meter room up to quite high volumes without audible strain. For pre-power, the Aries Cerat Impera or Incito S + Concero 65 monos are just about your budget limit and would be the best AC sound. The AC amps have low output impedances and very high capacity, low impedance, power supplies so that delivery of needed energy is close to instantaneous in a way I haven't heard with other amps. Dynamics you thought stopped on the recording keep going and you realize it was the gear, not the recording that was limiting the dynamic envelope.

I was a dealer for KR Audio in the past and while I really like how they sound I cannot say they are a better choice for the Thiels between them and Aries Cerat. However, I encourage you to demo both, if possible, before deciding. They do sound different enough that one could form a preference for one or the other regardless of apparent drive etc. Also, I have never tried the larger KRs (like DX monos) on the Thiels so YMMV.

You can of course come and hear an all AC setup with Thiels here at our listening room.

Thanks morricab, i'd be glad to come visit you for AC - CS 3.7 audition perhaps towards the end of the year.
 

morricab

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Apr 25, 2014
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Thanks morricab, i'd be glad to come visit you for AC - CS 3.7 audition perhaps towards the end of the year.

You are welcome anytime. Just let me know maybe a week or so in advance to make sure I will be available when you want to come.
 

Thieliste

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Aug 31, 2014
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Here is my lastest very short list for separates : Ypsilon PST 100 Mk2 + Aelius II monos vs Aries Cerat Impera II Ref + Concero 65 monos.
Integrated : T+A PA3100HV + PS3000HV.
For the separates it's going to be difficult to make a decision both are world class.
 

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