You aren't the forum police - read all of our write ups and actually go hear one before being pedantic on an internet forum.
Goodbye Vivaldi
- Thread starter Cincy2
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You aren't the forum police - read all of our write ups and actually go hear one before being pedantic on an internet forum.
Thanks - my question was centered on knowing more details about the "little difference". Your informative and enthusiastic posts report on tens of little differences - mostly costing a lot less that price of the Dartzeel preamplfier.So I see with great interest a 50k difference!
BTW, I was not aware that the MSB II Select variable output was passive - do you know what is the output impedance?
The select with 8 dac modules is 75 ohms while my Reference with 4 modules is 150. I have not sprung for the preamp module due to concern about whether the passive device will do what I need with no gain for my TT given my Soulution 501's 2000 ohm input impedance. My 721 has 2 ohm output impedance and can output a full amp if needed. I plan to give the module a try in time.
Thanks - my question was centered on knowing more details about the "little difference". Your informative and enthusiastic posts report on tens of little differences - mostly costing a lot less that price of the Dartzeel preamplfier.
your question was only preference.
the direct out and dart pre were similar in terms of transparency to the source, the dart had a slight bit more energy/dynamics and a slight bit more heft and body. considering the differences maybe some might have stayed with the direct out considering the investment side. in my case there is also the internal phono's, 'zeel' inputs from my King Cello and XLR inputs from the Studers to consider.
I have to acknowledge that since 8 months ago when I did that comparison some things have changed that could affect the outcome (Taiko Tana + Daiza). at that point I was using passive A10 U8 footers under the MSB dac and power supplies. and was using the 'nude' Herzan TS-150 under the dart pre. so both of those situations have been improved, likely the MSB's situation improved more to some degree. my gut is that there would not be a different outcome, but it might be closer now.
it's remarkable how close the MSB Select II passive preamp gets to the best active preamp. and you can have two analog inputs too......so a separate phono stage can be well supported with the MSB Select II.
I could not find the RCA output impedance listed anywhere in my manuals or documentation. here is what the website shows. to switch to the RCA outputs you exchange the output modules (which I did). but there was no documentation with that output module. in my discussions with Vince from MSB they are very confident with the driving power of their passive preamp, which was also my experience. plenty of gain and control.
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wow!!!
congrats Ken. I suppose i'm not surprised when I recall your feedback on this.
i'm very happy for you and look forward to your impressions when you have it going in your wonderful system.
I will try to be as technical as I can and specific as you request. I did some measurements in an attempt to be as objective as possible. All things considered I would say the Select is this much better:
I think you are manipulating what was said to make a point; maybe even to do what so many do, to bolster their own choices
It’s not that we are now just discovering rbcd or that it is “just fine” but how much better it sounds on this DAC than any we ever owned. You “got there 6 years ago” with the Eera, great. My prior DACs/transports from years ago never sounded like the Select II. Live with one for awhile and it may change your mind or give you some insight into what we are saying here.
To me, regardless of the resolution the quality of the recording always trumps all.
When Digital finally reaches it’s zenith,I think it will surpass vinyl and tape. Digital has no mechanical limitations unlike the others. The digital processor is effected by current hash mainly. Isolate that problem and you have about a pure audio signal that is possible. That’s why there is such a wide range in SQ with DACs.
The end result is a presentation that sounds live and incredibly beautiful. That’s my experience and opinion.
I have thought Redbook has it all (all we may need) for some time. Since I went dropped DS DACs and went R-2R DACs since 2008, and finally the Aries Cerat Kassandra. Everything else sounds flat and anemic IMO. I haven't heard a great sounding DS DAC yet. I am still open to it, but after the Kassandra, have stopped looking...
Loved Paul's reply, and I'll try to elaborate a bit more on it
You know when you have a system that you're sure can't get any more "real"? That's the MSB Reference. And then you put the SELECT in, and two seconds later, it's "ah ha! that is better still!".
The extra DAC modules (4 vs 8 on the SELECT) add not only resolution/transparency, but just extra "information", for incredible continuousness than the MSBs provide. A client who listened to the SELECT, after comparing to his Esoteric, just said "there's clearly a lot more information there!", and I thought that was a good way to put it. It's like the other DACs are not really digging all they can out of 16/44.
What MSB has achieved with both of these products is pure magic. Now I'm curious to see how much of that magic MSB managed to trickle down to the two new, more affordable models.
And BTW caesar, forum talk is fine and all, but you should do like Mike, Paul and Cincy there, and just go listen to one.
I am wondering what that continuousness is supposed to be that you guys are talking about. Isn't most music almost by definition "continuous"? When I compare what I hear from my system with the real thing, unamplified live music, I perceive all kinds of shortcomings from my system, but a lack of "continuousness" is not among them.
Thanks Mike, I really appreciate it! I’ve been following your posts and it is really a testimony to MSB’s preamp module that it gets so close in sound quality to the Dartzeel preamp. I’ve also heard some feedback that the Soulution 725 preamp is at least equal or slightly better than the MSB preamp module. As for me, the ARC Reference 10 preamp is leaving and I’ll be running direct from the Select II DAC to my Vandersteen M7-HPA monoblocks. Also looking at a six bay 30TB RAID configured Synology NAS to go with my Roon Nucleus Plus. No MSB Transport for now but maybe in the future if I still feel there is a need for it.
All the best,
Ken
hi Al,
I think so much of what we speak of is relative...….and degrees of things. lots of digital is 'good enough' and in isolation seems all there. you can come home from live music and feel great about what you hear from your digital player; but unless you compare it to another dac/player; you might not be aware that there might be better out there. and even possibly pursuing better might not be important.
and objective 'proof' is just not a concept we can apply to subjective opinions about gear. all we can do is collectively consider data points and see what information has merit. on forums we are sort of stuck with opinions.
i'd call myself a serial format comparer. I've put much effort in having top level gear and media in each format to have a clear picture of what each is capable of at the top of the food chain.
likely the best way to understand continuousness would be to sit here and listen to 1/2" RTR tape with me, and then progressively hear lesser formats on the same recording. that stepping down in data density, tonal steadiness and rock solid presentation (collectively continuousness) would then become easy to pick out. same with digital players/dacs. if we heard a number of them together, or even if we walked around audio shows twice a year paying attention (which is what I did) for a few years after a while this aspect of digital presentation would rank itself. in isolation many dacs would seem to fully check off this box. but when put in the context of other dacs, a ranking would immerge. in my own system, I use my vinyl and tape as my steady reference to hold up digital to...….although I've done a few dac to dac direct comparisons too.
a page or two back I referred to an Anna Netrebko recording where dac differences jump out. over time that one has worked for me.
so when I post an opinion that I consider the MSB Select II as at a unique level of continuousness compared to other digital I have heard, that is what i'm referring to. it is certainly only my opinion and not any absolute.
IMO, This is a hobby of 'degrees'. Everything sounds great, until that is you happen to hear something better.The road is always traveled. Right now the MSB Select DAC 11 sounds great, until the DAC that betters it comes along.
Congratulations Cincy...and Ken...
BTW, the Select Transport is in production and the local agent Pacific Audio here in Hong Kong said delivery within 2 months...so lets see...
BTW, the Select Transport is in production and the local agent Pacific Audio here in Hong Kong said delivery within 2 months...so lets see...
IMHO it one of the most perverse habits of this hobby - trying to rank every think and particularly ranking apples with oranges.
I know that this is intrinsic to many people, after many years reading Stereophile recommended components
, but I find this need to rank everything spoils any interest on debating high-end. IMHO this is an hobby of matching and preference, the interesting thing is the why's of why something sounds better in a particular system for soneone, not how it ranks in the imaginary of those who do not have experience with it.
The Dac cannot be separated from the Transport, if you want system optimization rather than local sub-optimization. Impossible for the Dac to correct all of what has gone wrong upstream. Bad power corrupts absolutely!
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