Goodbye Vivaldi

BMCG said:

That is in fact part of the challenge - and indeed enjoyment - of our hobby.

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Yes, it can yield great satisfaction and enjoyment when you manage to figure out a solution to a problem with the sound. At certain points in the development of a system it pays off to question any and all assumptions.

some further experience on the "preamp" add between vivaldi and an amp (a seriously non trivial amp...at that)

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?7557-DCS-Vivaldi&p=512740&viewfull=1#post512740

Pb Blimp said:

Thanks. So no way to assess directly (meaning apples to apples) how the Select II compares to the Vivaldi from this discussion. Just wanted to confirm this point.

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Well, dCS finally has competition at the highest of levels safe to say. I've heard plenty of dCS systems over the years and never found it as amazing as a Select-based one. Its an entirely different ballgame and just doesn't sound digital.

Bar81 said:

That's not the point - driving amps doesnt mean anything - you’re basing performance on the lowest factor, does it work on a technical level. In any case, based on reports to date I'm not surprised in the least that the MSB without pre outclasses the Vivaldi without pre. Not sure that anything more than that can be derived from the OP.

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Have you ever heard MSB Select or Ref dacs?

KeithR said:

Well, dCS finally has competition at the highest of levels safe to say. I've heard plenty of dCS systems over the years and never found it as amazing as a Select-based one. Its an entirely different ballgame and just doesn't sound digital.

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IMHO the dCS Vivaldi already had competition since long - but it seems most people preferred it. I find strange that you say that the Select does not sound digital - IMHO digital sounds excellent if properly matched.

We should remember that in Europe prices have a different relation - a dual power supply femto 33 ps MSB Select system costs the double of the Vivaldi system without transport.

KeithR said:

Well, dCS finally has competition at the highest of levels safe to say. I've heard plenty of dCS systems over the years and never found it as amazing as a Select-based one. Its an entirely different ballgame and just doesn't sound digital.

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What do you mean with 'just doesn't sound digital'? In my new, more optimized system, my Schiit Yggdrasil DAC also doesn't sound 'digital'. Just this morning I admired how in the recording of the minuet of Beethoven's string quartet op.18/2 by the Emerson Quartet (DGG) the string tone was so beguilingly soft and 'airily' resonant, very much in tune with some live string quartet experiences that I had. Very 'un-digital', in the sense how far removed it is from the typical 'trademark' distortions of earlier digital, and in the sense of how much this sounds like quality analog. (The sound of my system also can exhibit a convincingly hard, even brutal, bite when the instruments' character demands it.)

Like Francisco, I find your comment strange -- as if the Select has something that elevates it so much above any other digital in naturalness, such that it makes sound everything else like 'typical digital'. If so, I am very curious what that might be? A precise description please. Preferably with a reference to live unamplified music that I can understand.

I love the guys who’ve “discovered” 16/44 rbcd is just fine after all, however needing a $80k dac in 2018 to get there.
I got there 6 years ago w the $12k Eera Tentation cdp, which is so “undigital” for a digital player, it’s unreal.

What does "undigital" mean? And if someone describes a DAC as not sounding like "digital", what does he think it does sound like? Real music, analog, both, neither? I find these kinds of statements to be very confusing.

A few years ago I heard a demo of a digital system at the NYC audio show. Later that night I heard a live amplified rock/pop performance in one of the larger hotel rooms. The digital demo sounded very much like that live amplified performance: very loud, highly distorted, and fatiguing. I did not stay long for either. Those in charge of the digital demo handed out tickets for the live performance. I found that comparison very interesting.

microstrip said:

IMHO the dCS Vivaldi already had competition since long - but it seems most people preferred it. I find strange that you say that the Select does not sound digital - IMHO digital sounds excellent if properly matched.

We should remember that in Europe prices have a different relation - a dual power supply femto 33 ps MSB Select system costs the double of the Vivaldi system without transport.

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Francisco has a point, on the pricing. But given that the MSB Reference DAC delivers a good chunk of the SELECT magic for $40k, it's a must audition for Vivaldi owners, even if they're satisfied with what they have, as Vivaldi owners end up spending that much on cabling alone. Add the MSB Ref transport for $18.5k, and you have a killer system, no expensive cabling required.

Al M. said:

What do you mean with 'just doesn't sound digital'?

Like Francisco, I find your comment strange -- as if the Select has something that elevates it so much above any other digital in naturalness, such that it makes sound everything else like 'typical digital'. If so, I am very curious what that might be? A precise description please. Preferably with a reference to live unamplified music that I can understand.

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With all due respect, I'm not going to. There is a 200-page thread on the MSB Select with MikeL and others' reviews (including myself) and the unit has been discussed for two years. Countless people at WBF and AS have written about its transcendent qualities. There are stories of people selling expensive TT setups once they got one. One person has even said it sounds like tape without the hiss.

And since my Analog Dac (which betters the excellent value Yggy) sounds like 'good digital' after hearing the Select/Ref (despite its name!), well I'm sorry Al but you just don't know what you don't know. You guys really need to go hear one to understand. Its a rather humbling experience but at the same time might make you giggly in disbelief.

spiritofmusic said:

I love the guys who’ve “discovered” 16/44 rbcd is just fine after all, however needing a $80k dac in 2018 to get there.
I got there 6 years ago w the $12k Eera Tentation cdp, which is so “undigital” for a digital player, it’s unreal.

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Nice pot shot, but with all due respect Spirit you haven't heard one.

KeithR said:

With all due respect, I'm not going to. There is a 200-page thread on the MSB Select with MikeL and others' reviews (including myself) and the unit has been discussed for two years. Countless people at WBF and AS have written about its transcendent qualities. There are stories of people selling expensive TT setups once they got one. One person has even said it sounds like tape without the hiss.

And since my Analog Dac (which betters the excellent value Yggy) sounds like 'good digital' after hearing the Select/Ref (despite its name!), well I'm sorry Al but you just don't know what you don't know. You guys really need to go hear one to understand. Its a rather humbling experience but at the same time might make you giggly in disbelief.

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A totally evasive non-answer, Keith. If you know so much, why not try to communicate your knowledge? And yes, I have read most of the 200-page thread on the MSB Select, but that is beside the point.

Unless you try to define what you mean by 'just doesn't sound digital' compared to other DACs, it is a meaningless statement. Completely and indefensibly meaningless. Better scrap it from your vocabulary.

And remember, I am not the only one who complained.

***

As for Analog DAC vs. Yggy, I have heard the Analog DAC too. But at this point I won't get into the question which one is better.

Al M. said:

A totally evasive non-answer, Keith. If you know so much, why not try to communicate your knowledge? And yes, I have read most of the 200-page thread on the MSB Select, but that is beside the point.

Unless you try to define what you mean by 'just doesn't sound digital' compared to other DACs, it is a meaningless statement. Completely and indefensibly meaningless. Better scrap it from your vocabulary.

And remember, I am not the only one who complained.

***

As for Analog DAC vs. Yggy, I have heard the Analog DAC too. But at this point I won't get into the question which one is better.

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after hearing the MSB Select II 3 years ago at an audio show (after it was suggested to me by a few WBF members I needed to hear it), I was a bit stunned and affected. I then spent a couple of years trying to find a more affordable alternative that could relate the continuousness, solidity and ease of the music with challenging material like piano and other acoustic music. a couple times a year I would hear the MSB Select II at a show, and go around and sample all the other digital and my experience was that over these multiple samples (as well as my own formidable acquisitions in my own system), that it was the MSB Select II, and everything else. so finally last year I went and listened at the LAAS one more time, and pulled the trigger.

as far as it not sounding like other digital; sure......that was exactly my experience prior to buying mine. it stood out as 'something' more......not exactly vinyl......more like tape.....but not really sounding digital. and getting it in my room I feel even more like that. then I added a second power supply.....and that was a big boost. I tried the internal passive pre......but my dart was a little better (but the dart is considered by many the best active preamp so that is no dig). I added the Tripoint Elite with Thor SE ground cable......another jump up. now it's got the Taiko Tana active under the dac and SGM server. I keep finding more and more information.

so yes I do feel strongly that it rises above other digital and avoids the need for coloring forgiving output circuits (it actually does not have any gain stage and outputs directly from the dac itself), and also avoids any sense of flattening or grain, or threadbare presentation. it's just music. like my vinyl and tape is just music. and previously I could not say that.

while I appreciate that there have been a number of direct comparisons to other top level digital (including Vivaldi), and I appreciate the efforts of people reporting these perceptions, for me the only compares that matter are that I can quickly jump from the MSB to my vinyl or tape and focus on the music, and find it fully there. I see the feedback on those direct compares as data points, but will wait until I have the opportunity to do a direct compare before I draw conclusions. I've not heard everything, and I especially have not done meaningful direct compares with everything.

these past 2 days I had out of town visitors (why I've not posted on this thread till now) and we did have a few hours of redbook listening. they were quite amazed. does that or anything I wrote prove that the MSB is superior to others with redbook? no. do I happen to believe it is unique? sure. this next weekend (Saturday June 2nd) I will have 35 members of my local audio club in my room for a few hours for a meeting. looking forward to more people being exposed to the MSB Select II.

Mike Lavigne said:

(...) so yes I do feel strongly that it rises above other digital and avoids the need for coloring forgiving output circuits (it actually does not have any gain stage and outputs directly from the dac itself), and also avoids any sense of flattening or grain, or threadbare presentation. it's just music. like my vinyl and tape is just music. and previously I could not say that. (...)

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The unanswered and main question - do you prefer the Select II driving directly the amplifiers or using the DartZeel preamplifier?

microstrip said:

The unanswered and main question - do you prefer the Select II driving directly the amplifiers or using the DartZeel preamplifier?

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as I said above.....

as far as it not sounding like other digital; sure......that was exactly my experience prior to buying mine. it stood out as 'something' more......not exactly vinyl......more like tape.....but not really sounding digital. and getting it in my room I feel even more like that. then I added a second power supply.....and that was a big boost. I tried the internal passive pre......but my dart was a little better (but the dart is considered by many the best active preamp so that is no dig). I added the Tripoint Elite with Thor SE ground cable......another jump up. now it's got the Taiko Tana active under the dac and SGM server. I keep finding more and more information.

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after consulting with MSB I did use the 'zeel' inputs direct into the dart 458 mono blocks from the MSB passive pre and it had no problem. and currently i'm using the 'zeel' inputs on the dart pre from the MSB.

would 'any' other active preamp be equal or superior to the internal passive preamp of the MSB Select II? don't know the answer. the battery powered dart pre has earned it's lofty reputation. I would guess there would be a few other active preamps that could surpass the internal pre of the MSB Select II particularly if they have special synergy with the amplifiers used. it's possible that only the dart pre could do that......but I'm not in a position to claim that.

spiritofmusic said:

I love the guys who’ve “discovered” 16/44 rbcd is just fine after all, however needing a $80k dac in 2018 to get there.
I got there 6 years ago w the $12k Eera Tentation cdp, which is so “undigital” for a digital player, it’s unreal.

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It warms my heart to know you care about us.

Mike Lavigne said:

as I said above.....



after consulting with MSB I did use the 'zeel' inputs direct into the dart 458 mono blocks from the MSB passive pre and it had no problem. and currently i'm using the 'zeel' inputs on the dart pre from the MSB.

would 'any' other active preamp be equal or superior to the internal passive preamp of the MSB Select II? don't know the answer. the battery powered dart pre has earned it's lofty reputation. I would guess there would be a few other active preamps that could surpass the internal pre of the MSB Select II particularly if they have special synergy with the amplifiers used. it's possible that only the dart pre could do that......but I'm not in a position to claim that.

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Thanks - my question was centered on knowing more details about the "little difference". Your informative and enthusiastic posts report on tens of little differences - mostly costing a lot less that price of the Dartzeel preamplfier. So I see with great interest a 50k difference!

BTW, I was not aware that the MSB II Select variable output was passive - do you know what is the output impedance?

Paul, we’re a caring community, first and foremost, with sarcasm not far behind.
Truly if the big spenders in this hobby genuinely feel that the Select is IT, and the 4 box Vivaldi will from this day on be used as the world’s priciest paperweight/doorstop, that’s great.
All I’m saying is that there are all sorts of epiphanies to be had at all price levels, where we feel a new digital piece cannot be surpassed.
For me, that’s the Eera.
I’m sure the Select beats it in some limited respects .

there is a musical test I do to hear ultimate lack of grain and musical purity for digital. it's a Donizetti aria "Ardon gli incensi", track 11 on Anna Netrebko's 2004 recording 'Sempre Libera'. this is a CD, an SACD, dsd file and 88/24 file. it's a DG native 96/24 sourced recording. so the 88/24 file should be best and does sound the best. for years I've taken the dual layer SACD to shows and whenever I do testing it's the gold standard for separating the men from the boys.

on this track 11 is a glass harmonica that has an exchange with Anna at full tilt boogie. from about 2:40 to the end of the track is a run of remarkable fireworks between Anna and this glass harmonica. especially at 3:21 for the next 30 seconds. both from Anna and the glass harmonica there is texture, delicacy, and transparency which many dacs just can't really relate. garbage in-garbage out. A/B any dacs with this track and it's easy to hear what certain gear can't quite do. the enemy of the very very good is the amazing.

the MSB Select II really took this track to a whole new level for me. analog has done vocals in another realm than digital in my experience, but when I hear native digital vocal recordings (or the better transfers) on the MSB Select II i'm getting a clear window to the source. no; it's not 1/2" tape levels of information. but it's not missing anything either.

asiufy said:

Francisco has a point, on the pricing. But given that the MSB Reference DAC delivers a good chunk of the SELECT magic for $40k, it's a must audition for Vivaldi owners, even if they're satisfied with what they have, as Vivaldi owners end up spending that much on cabling alone. Add the MSB Ref transport for $18.5k, and you have a killer system, no expensive cabling required.

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Yep. Throw in the femto 33 and the renderer. The poor mans Select 1 & 1/2.