Goodbye Vivaldi

Cincy2

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Jun 2, 2016
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The day I thought would never come has arrived. My trusty dCS /Aurender front end (DAC, Clock, Upsampler, Aurender W20) has been bested by the......MSB Select II DAC. Mike Bovaird of Suncoast Audio lent me his demo unit for the weekend. I spent it comparing the two rigs and much to my surprise in my system, in my room, it wasn't even close. The Select II has more resolution, blacker background, sharper images and most surprising of all, the characteristics of a reference class pre-amp. I fed the DAC output direct to the D'Agostino mono blocks and wanted for nothing. Each instrument had greater weight than the Vivaldi output. I spent most of the weekend trying to find a set up where the Vivaldi would compete but I couldn't.

One DAC with simple inputs (ethernet, power) and simple outputs (balanced analogs to my D'Ags) did the job. No upsampling, no filter selections. Vanilla configuration that beat the pants off the system that was the culmination of 15 years of loyalty and upgrades from dCS. I feel guilty I like the MSB so much. In any case, the new Select shows up on Tuesday and I shall be cocooned in my room thereafter coming out only when absolutely necessary.

Set up: Select II DAC with MQA/Roon network renderer, balanced analog output and femto 33 clock module. Two power supply chassis's (one AC, on DC). D'Agostino M400 mono blocks. Magico M3 speakers. Lots of Transparent cabling.

Cincy
 

Pb Blimp

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Oct 30, 2017
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The day I thought would never come has arrived. My trusty dCS /Aurender front end (DAC, Clock, Upsampler, Aurender W20) has been bested by the......MSB Select II DAC. Mike Bovaird of Suncoast Audio lent me his demo unit for the weekend. I spent it comparing the two rigs and much to my surprise in my system, in my room, it wasn't even close. The Select II has more resolution, blacker background, sharper images and most surprising of all, the characteristics of a reference class pre-amp. I fed the DAC output direct to the D'Agostino mono blocks and wanted for nothing. Each instrument had greater weight than the Vivaldi output. I spent most of the weekend trying to find a set up where the Vivaldi would compete but I couldn't.

One DAC with simple inputs (ethernet, power) and simple outputs (balanced analogs to my D'Ags) did the job. No upsampling, no filter selections. Vanilla configuration that beat the pants off the system that was the culmination of 15 years of loyalty and upgrades from dCS. I feel guilty I like the MSB so much. In any case, the new Select shows up on Tuesday and I shall be cocooned in my room thereafter coming out only when absolutely necessary.

Set up: Select II DAC with MQA/Roon network renderer, balanced analog output and femto 33 clock module. Two power supply chassis's (one AC, on DC). D'Agostino M400 mono blocks. Magico M3 speakers. Lots of Transparent cabling.

Cincy

Oh good. I thought you were saying you where going to become a Bach guy.

MSB is indeed on to something very, very special.
 
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Priaptor

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Jan 28, 2012
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The day I thought would never come has arrived. My trusty dCS /Aurender front end (DAC, Clock, Upsampler, Aurender W20) has been bested by the......MSB Select II DAC. Mike Bovaird of Suncoast Audio lent me his demo unit for the weekend. I spent it comparing the two rigs and much to my surprise in my system, in my room, it wasn't even close. The Select II has more resolution, blacker background, sharper images and most surprising of all, the characteristics of a reference class pre-amp. I fed the DAC output direct to the D'Agostino mono blocks and wanted for nothing. Each instrument had greater weight than the Vivaldi output. I spent most of the weekend trying to find a set up where the Vivaldi would compete but I couldn't.

One DAC with simple inputs (ethernet, power) and simple outputs (balanced analogs to my D'Ags) did the job. No upsampling, no filter selections. Vanilla configuration that beat the pants off the system that was the culmination of 15 years of loyalty and upgrades from dCS. I feel guilty I like the MSB so much. In any case, the new Select shows up on Tuesday and I shall be cocooned in my room thereafter coming out only when absolutely necessary.

Set up: Select II DAC with MQA/Roon network renderer, balanced analog output and femto 33 clock module. Two power supply chassis's (one AC, on DC). D'Agostino M400 mono blocks. Magico M3 speakers. Lots of Transparent cabling.

Cincy

As you know my experience from multiple posts including on AudioShark I share your views and congrats.

I would just add that several weeks ago got the Renderer and couldn’t believe how much better it became with Gobels Ethernet cable.

Not cheap BUT you got the “best”.

Highly recommended. I am a Ethernet cable skeptic but this wasn’t close compared to my Acoustic Revive and AQ Vodka.

In any case congrats and enjoy!

Howie
 

Alpinist

Well-Known Member
Jun 17, 2014
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USA
The day I thought would never come has arrived. My trusty dCS /Aurender front end (DAC, Clock, Upsampler, Aurender W20) has been bested by the......MSB Select II DAC. Mike Bovaird of Suncoast Audio lent me his demo unit for the weekend. I spent it comparing the two rigs and much to my surprise in my system, in my room, it wasn't even close. The Select II has more resolution, blacker background, sharper images and most surprising of all, the characteristics of a reference class pre-amp. I fed the DAC output direct to the D'Agostino mono blocks and wanted for nothing. Each instrument had greater weight than the Vivaldi output. I spent most of the weekend trying to find a set up where the Vivaldi would compete but I couldn't.

One DAC with simple inputs (ethernet, power) and simple outputs (balanced analogs to my D'Ags) did the job. No upsampling, no filter selections. Vanilla configuration that beat the pants off the system that was the culmination of 15 years of loyalty and upgrades from dCS. I feel guilty I like the MSB so much. In any case, the new Select shows up on Tuesday and I shall be cocooned in my room thereafter coming out only when absolutely necessary.

Set up: Select II DAC with MQA/Roon network renderer, balanced analog output and femto 33 clock module. Two power supply chassis's (one AC, on DC). D'Agostino M400 mono blocks. Magico M3 speakers. Lots of Transparent cabling.

Cincy

Congratulations Eric! You have methodically put together a world class system. I also have ordered a Select II DAC with virtually the same options as yours. I also just ordered a Roon Nucleus Plus that will be used in conjunction with a RAID configured NAS and the Renderer input module. I will also be running without preamp. MSB is really gaining momentum as more and more audiophiles are trading in their digital gear for the MSB sound.

Best,
Ken
 

Priaptor

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Jan 28, 2012
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Congratulations Eric! You have methodically put together a world class system. I also have ordered a Select II DAC with virtually the same options as yours. I also just ordered a Roon Nucleus Plus that will be used in conjunction with a RAID configured NAS and the Renderer input module. I will also be running without preamp. MSB is really gaining momentum as more and more audiophiles are trading in their digital gear for the MSB sound.

Best,
Ken

Ken

While all resolution of digital sounds amazing on it as time goes in you will be amazed at how amazing redbook sounds. I am still astounded when I start playing some of my older ripped CDs.

Congrats to you as well.

I was originally a skeptic of going direct from the Select to my amp. After two weeks finally tried it and it wasn’t close. My Ref10 was boxed and sold on Audiogon.

Enjoy
 

Pb Blimp

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Oct 30, 2017
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Ken

While all resolution of digital sounds amazing on it as time goes in you will be amazed at how amazing redbook sounds. I am still astounded when I start playing some of my older ripped CDs.

Congrats to you as well.

I was originally a skeptic of going direct from the Select to my amp. After two weeks finally tried it and it wasn’t close. My Ref10 was boxed and sold on Audiogon.

Enjoy

Agree 100% re redbook. It is astounding and I only have the Reference. Hard to believe.
 

Priaptor

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Agree 100% re redbook. It is astounding and I only have the Reference. Hard to believe.

First thing I noticed was how good redbook was. I never experienced it with the IV or V but with these newer DACs I couldn’t believe it. Maybe Sony was correct all along and we never had the ability to hear their full capabilities before.
 

asiufy

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Jul 8, 2011
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Congratulations on the SELECT II!

From someone who has done that comparison (Vivaldi x MSB) more than once, it's great to see that the outcome is the same as in our local circle. The first time I barely had time to do some comparison on my own, as the client made up his mind to go with the SELECT halfway through the second song!

Oh, and not one but two of my local clients are running SELECTs directly into M400s, one of them with Magico Q7mk2s! You'll be thrilled!

cheers,
 

Alpinist

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Jun 17, 2014
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First thing I noticed was how good redbook was. I never experienced it with the IV or V but with these newer DACs I couldn’t believe it. Maybe Sony was correct all along and we never had the ability to hear their full capabilities before.

I agree. Redbook, SACD, high res. files, they all sound phenomenal. I found myself much less concerned about the format and native sampling rate than with other DACs I’ve owned or listened to. I heard the Reference DAC all three days at RMAF and it sounded wonderful. Both Reference and Select are total winners in my book.

Ken
 

Barry2013

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Oct 12, 2013
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That's quite a vote of confidence in the MSB Dac.
Does it beat the Vivaldi 4 box when used with an SACD transport I wonder?
 

Al M.

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First thing I noticed was how good redbook was. I never experienced it with the IV or V but with these newer DACs I couldn’t believe it. Maybe Sony was correct all along and we never had the ability to hear their full capabilities before.

Yes, after finally wrapping my head around it to a sufficient degree, I have become convinced about 3 years ago that the digital theory of Redbook was correct all along. From a theoretical point of view, a sampling rate of 48-50 kHz might have been better for less steep filtering, but a bit depth of 16 seems fine (quantization noise is taken care of with dither). From what I understand about digital history, back then a non-compromise digital format would have meant somewhere around 16 bit, 48-50 kHz -- the famous Soundstream format was 16 bit, 50 kHz; the American Audio Engineering Society (AES) to this day recommends a sampling rate of 48 kHz. Redbook 16 bit, 44.1 kHz is not too far off. The non-Nyquist idea that much higher sampling rates are necessary was never on the plate of digital engineers back then, generally speaking, even though it may have been a fringe opinion of some at the time; as I see it, any opinion to the contrary is audiophile revisionist history.

Of course, for recording/mixing/mastering a higher bit rate is desirable to prevent losses, but for the final delivery a 16-bit format seems fine.

It is great to hear that more than three decades later Redbook digital finally delivers on its promises, now that high-quality practical implementation of the theory has sufficiently advanced. On a somewhat lesser level I get a good glimpse of that with my Schiit Yggdrasil DAC as well; the resolution of the Redbook format is just astonishing, on things that I would have considered a few years ago to be firmly and exclusively on the terrain of top level analog playback.
 

microstrip

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The day I thought would never come has arrived. (...)

Congratulations on your choice - I have never listened to the MSB Sellect II, surely it is a great sounding DAC. I am not astonished with your choice of the MSB in your particular system - IMHO the Vivaldi DAC does not include a preamplifier and needs an external one to create a great sounding system. All my experiences with the Vivaldi driving amplifier directly were unsuccessful in the long term. What drove me away from the M400's was mainly the price of the preamplifier. :(

I have written it before - you do not connect a Vivaldi to a system, you must build a system around it. If we do so we are rewarded with digital that reminds us in many aspects with the great experiences we listen with real music. IMHO it is worth the effort - I started questioning many of the glorious aspects of vinyl when I managed to optimize my Vivaldi based system.

Although redbook can sound fabulous, a great SACD played through the Vivaldi CD/SACD transport surpasses it by a wide margin. I bet the same will happen when you get the MSB matching transport! :cool:

As usual, IMHO and YMMV!
 
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Pb Blimp

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Congratulations on your choice - I have never listened to the MSB Sellect II, surely it is a great sounding DAC. I am not astonished with your choice of the MSB in your particular system - IMHO the Vivaldi DAC does not include a preamplifier and needs an external one to create a great sounding system. All my experiences with the Vivaldi driving amplifier directly were unsuccessful in the long term. What drove me away from the M400's was mainly the price of the preamplifier. :(

I have written it before - you do not connect a Vivaldi to a system, you must build a system around it. If we do so we are rewarded with digital that reminds us in many aspects with the great experiences we listen with real music. IMHO it is worth the effort - I started questioning many of the glorious aspects of vinyl when I managed to optimize my Vivaldi based system.

Although redbook can sound fabulous, a great SACD played through the Vivaldi CD/SACD transport surpasses it by a wide margin. I bet the same will happen when you get the MSB matching transport! :cool:

As usual, IMHO and YMMV!

I am curious, Dan's amps are very easy to drive with exceedingly high input impedance, did you actually try to run the M400's with your Vivaldi or did your experience with the Vivaldi's inadequacy as a preamp involve other more difficult amps to drive?
 

Bar81

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I am curious, Dan's amps are very easy to drive with exceedingly high input impedance, did you actually try to run the M400's with your Vivaldi or did your experience with the Vivaldi's inadequacy as a preamp involve other more difficult amps to drive?

That's not the point - driving amps doesnt mean anything - you’re basing performance on the lowest factor, does it work on a technical level. In any case, based on reports to date I'm not surprised in the least that the MSB without pre outclasses the Vivaldi without pre. Not sure that anything more than that can be derived from the OP.
 

Priaptor

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I am not making this post to denigrate other peoples amps or praise mine, just to point out something.

I tried the D'Ag S250 and it was wonderful. I have nothing bad to say about the amp and loved it.

I also loved the CH M1 which I ultimately bought.

Aside from my personal preference (could have been very happy with either as well as a host of others I tried), one of the very good things about the CH when using it direct from the MSB is that it has adjustable gain. I don't need it often BUT, depending upon the sensitivity of your speakers and the DR of the cut being played, it does occasionally come in handy.
 

Pb Blimp

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That's not the point - driving amps doesnt mean anything - you’re basing performance on the lowest factor, does it work on a technical level. In any case, based on reports to date I'm not surprised in the least that the MSB without pre outclasses the Vivaldi without pre. Not sure that anything more than that can be derived from the OP.

Sorry if I distracted you from the main point of my post. I am merely attempting determine if micro's observations about the performance of the Vivaldi without a preamp was based on the same comparison performed by cincy.

Regarding your point that impedance matching is the "lowest factor" determining performance in an amp/preamp synergy, I disagree. Most certainly "technical" factors beyond impedance matching are important, but IMO you can't even begin to consider their merits without proper impedance matching. But again, this was not the purpose of my question. To the extent micro made his observations about the Vivaldi driving the same amps as cincy his post would be a more meaningful data point than the alternative. Thats all I was attempting to understand.
 

microstrip

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I am curious, Dan's amps are very easy to drive with exceedingly high input impedance, did you actually try to run the M400's with your Vivaldi or did your experience with the Vivaldi's inadequacy as a preamp involve other more difficult amps to drive?

We had many debates on the importance of a preamplifier in a top high-end system. From a technical point of view most people will tell you it is an expensive switch box, nothing else. In my experience it is the heart of a system - in forty years I never listened to a system without preamplifier that I would like to own. But surely I am prepared to learn! ;)

And yes, I tried the Vivaldi directly with the Momentum, but is was the stereo. Not my cup of tea.
Last week I tried the Vivaldi directly with the Parasound's JC1 mono's by curiosity - the introduction of the JC2 preamplifier lifted considerably the performance of the system.

Unfortunately people go on wanting fast, immediate and reliable answers to matching - something that IMHO does not exist in an hobby where someone's meat is another one's poison.
 
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Al M.

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Unfortunately people go on wanting fast, immediate and reliable answers to matching - something that IMHO does not exist in an hobby where someone's meat is another one's poison.

+1

This hobby is too complex for easy answers. Just the last few days I made some acoustic changes to my room which greatly benefitted the performance of my system, removing a few unnerving distortions. The problem was that my new system, because it did everything else so well, had become too revealing of some shortcomings that I had overlooked before. I used to blame it, and particularly the new speakers, for the persistence of these distortions. Yet it paid off looking deeper. At fault were the acoustics -- yet again.

The answers are never easy. Or reliably transferable from one situation to another.
 

BMCG

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+1

This hobby is too complex for easy answers. Just the last few days I made some acoustic changes to my room which greatly benefitted the performance of my system, removing a few unnerving distortions. The problem was that my new system, because it did everything else so well, had become too revealing of small shortcomings that I had overlooked before. I used to blame it, and particularly the new speakers, for the persistence of these distortions. Yet it paid off looking deeper. At fault were the acoustics -- yet again.

The answers are never easy. Or reliably transferable from one situation to another.

That is in fact part of the challenge - and indeed enjoyment - of our hobby.
 

Pb Blimp

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We had many debates on the importance of a preamplifier in a top high-end system. From a technical point of view most people will tell you it is an expensive switch box, nothing else. In my experience it is the heart of a system - in forty years I never listened to a system without preamplifier that I would like to own. But surely I am prepared to learn! ;)

And yes, I tried the Vivaldi directly with the Momentum, but is was the stereo. Not my cup of tea.
Last week I tried the Vivaldi directly with the Parasound's JC1 mono's by curiosity - the introduction of the JC2 preamplifier lifted considerably the performance of the system.

Unfortunately people go on wanting fast, immediate and reliable answers to matching - something that IMHO does not exist in an hobby where someone's meat is another one's poison.

Thanks. So no way to assess directly (meaning apples to apples) how the Select II compares to the Vivaldi from this discussion. Just wanted to confirm this point.
 

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