Brand Loyalty: Can one be too loyal?

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,522
10,688
3,515
USA
On another note you are too loyal to all your brands.

I was struck by this comment made in another thread in response to my admission to having Pass Labs gear in my system ever since I got back into the hobby in 1993. Surely others have had one or more brands in their system for a long time. Rather than take that other thread off topic, I would like to start a new thread to discuss brand loyalty.

I have now had an SME/Pass/Magico based system for about seven years. We all know of audiophiles who have multiple copies of the same tonearm or who have upgraded many different models from the same speaker manufacturer. Some brands now seem to depend on repeat customers with some cartridge manufactures, for instance, offering generous trade in policies for upgrades.

What does "too loyal to all your brands" mean?
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
22,443
13,473
2,710
London
Peter, everyone finds some gem or the other. But you have stuck to the same brands across the chain... Your SME hasn't changed, your Magico hasn't, your pass hasn't. In fact, even with cartridges you stay put in the airtight supreme/opus MSL club.

There are many ways to improve. It is difficult to say if you stuck to them because they were the best value at your price point or because you did not want to change the brand. Had it been only one brand, I would have suspected the former. Will your next upgrade be on the Magico line? Will you investigate drastically alternate sounds before upgrading? Will you try a valve phono, or another SS phono? Other carts?

Too loyal to your brands means you might be missing some value/sonic points that are better with other brands. I am fine with that in the case of Colgate but with hifi sticking to a brand because I have always used it becomes too costly a proposition.
 

SuperDave

Well-Known Member
May 12, 2017
252
78
158
Texas
Hi Peter,
Interesting question. Too loyal to me would be not investigating competing brands when making a purchase. My Rockport Aviors were my first dive into the high-end and in a bigger room, I would likely move up the line to the Lyra. I love Rockports, always have, but I would still look at the M6 even though Rockport & Nagra work well together IMO. I'm also loyal to my dealer. Fortunately, he carries Rockport and Nagra and for me to not go through him, it would have to be unbelievable sound and the same level of service he offers which is rare.

Dave
 

dan31

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2010
1,016
365
1,153
SF Bay
I think some of the loyalty is related to sticking with a dealer who has a generous upgrade trade in policy or the manufacturer offering the same.

I don’t think I have any loyalty per say, but I am happy with the components I have chosen and they work well together. My only upgrades would be within the components I own until they are no longer working. My next update will be a cartridge rebuild in a year or two.
 
Last edited:

jeff1225

Well-Known Member
Jan 29, 2012
3,007
3,249
1,410
51
This hobby is 100% subjective because of how each of us hear individually; it makes sense that we would like a house sound from a specific designer. Nelson Pass is one of the greatest designers in audio history, it makes sense that there would be many people loyal to Nakamichi, Threshold, Pass, or wherever Nelson Pass designed.
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,471
11,366
4,410
I was struck by this comment made in another thread in response to my admission to having Pass Labs gear in my system ever since I got back into the hobby in 1993. Surely others have had one or more brands in their system for a long time. Rather than take that other thread off topic, I would like to start a new thread to discuss brand loyalty.

I have now had an SME/Pass/Magico based system for about seven years. We all know of audiophiles who have multiple copies of the same tonearm or who have upgraded many different models from the same speaker manufacturer. Some brands now seem to depend on repeat customers with some cartridge manufactures, for instance, offering generous trade in policies for upgrades.

What does "too loyal to all your brands" mean?

I don't think there is a right or wrong on this subject. and reasons for brand loyalty are multi-faceted. but just like my marriage (44 years same wife) and job (37 years same company), I'm a 'hifi' brand loyal type guy.....too.

in my case, speakers/amps/preamps from 1995-2001 (6 years) it was Mark Levinson and Wilson Audio, then 2001--2004 it was Tenor Audio and Kharma, then 2005--2018, (13 years), darTZeel, and Evolution Acoustics. if we include sources, it was more playing the digital field early, but later (9 years) 2005-2015 Playback Designs, then some wandering and now MSB for the last year. turntables it's been (8 years) Rockport then (7 years) Wave Kinetics......with some dabbling with a few others during that stretch. tonearms with Durand for now 7 years. then tape decks (10 years) with Studer.

am I 'blind' to other brands? my answer would be that I know what I want. I've developed a musical compass, musical reference and hifi sonic wish list and found brands that play to that viewpoint. I know the owners/designers of these products and they know me and what is important to me in performance. even sometimes asking me what I think, or run by me products coming to market. then there is resale value, and model turnover and value retention when moving up in the brand which also can matter with brand loyalty.

none of my brands are common in brick and mortar places. the model change rate is glacial. the value retention is legendary.....and none of my products seem to limit the performance of my system and my goals for it.

to me the only question to ask on this subject is whether the user has good reasons to stay loyal and are they happy. it's personal.

and Ked is the last person to listen to on this subject.:rolleyes:
 
Last edited:

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
24,305
1,323
435
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
It is a complex subject...loyalty. We can be loyal to one brand because of business relationship, or because the designer fits our philosophy, or because we have privileges, or because the brand builds products using only the best parts, or because of the services and support provided, or because of durability and longevity, or because of the performance/value ratio, or because the brand is above the rest...the best of its category, or because we are happy with what we hear.

Behind any brand there is a group of people, that group we like more than another group...up from the CEOs down to the customers/investors.

Elon Musk is looking for dedicated loyal smart people in his team, Apple, Microsoft, Facebook, Amazon, Donald Trump...

People are free to shop around...for audio gear, for jobs, for cars, for houses, for neighborhoods, for lifestyle.

Pass Labs, SME, Magico, Wilson Audio Specialties, Revel, Bryston, Oppo, LG, Sony, B&W, Dynaudio, Rhythmic, SVS, Shunyata, Triangle, Mirage, dCS, Brinkman, Linn, VPI, Classé, darTZeel, Lamm Industries, Audio Research, Vivid, mbl, Focal, Martin Logan, Quad, Sonus Faber, Lyra, ...dozens, hundreds of brands with loyal fans to pick from, to compare, to buy, to read about, to be part of a society with similar taste in gear, in music, in new discoveries, in sharing and exchanging ideas, to grow up with, to advance, ...

Peter, you have picked among the best audio brands. The level of your loyalty towards those brands is your personal affair, your passionate journey. You inspire us; that's not too much loyalty...it is just the right amount of loyalty.
 

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
24,305
1,323
435
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
I've just read the three posts above me, after posting mine. Mike mentioned his wife. I thought of it when writing my above post (I'm a slow typewriter, very) but people's loyalty to their living partners from their marriage is much more important than audio gear loyalty; it's a mutual human emotional living agreement, a communion @ the highest level. It involves much more than just listening... :b

With audio gear there is no communication between it and the listeners, only music reproduction we refine along the journey and we learn to appreciate. It's a one on one affair between one human and a machine.
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
16,017
13,347
2,665
Beverly Hills, CA
I think that “finding equipment which does sonically, for the money, what I want it to do and which makes me totally happy” is different than “I want to survey everything available, both vintage and new, to prove to myself that the equipment I have does sonically, for the money, what I want it to do and makes me totally happy.”

I think it is more a difference in shopping technique and decision-making process than anything else. This difference applies to any purchase decision, whether it be cars or dishwashers or audio amplifiers.

I have had Aesthetix and VTL and Martin-Logan equipment for over 18 years. But I never thought of anything in terms of a “brand loyalty.”

In fact over the course of my three-year amplifier search I never even considered Aesthetix or VTL amplifiers, because I was on an “SET mission.” For various reasons the Io Eclipse remains my favorite phono stage. Once I decided to re-investigate high-power, push-pull tube amplifiers I considered all of the obvious suspects with no starting prejudice for VTL.

This post is making me realize that ownership of the same brand’s products for many years may have nothing to do with the concept of “brand loyalty” per se. It may, but it also may not.

I should have started this post by asking Kedar to provide a definition of “brand loyalty” which we all then can evaluate.
 

DSkip

Industry Expert
Aug 26, 2013
442
194
350
Arlington, TX
www.audiothesis.com
Is marriage better than living the single life? I think so, but many of my friends disagree. I think this hobby has a lot in common with dating trends. Sometimes its the thought of everlasting love, sometimes its the idea of variety with no commitment, other times its the spice of a new fling that draw people in.

My favorite client is the former, like you. Sometimes its hard to get a commitment but once they fall, I know they'll be there for years to come. I think it shows a confidence in knowing your sound for most, though I do see where some it could show a stubbornness to change. I don't know too many audiophiles who are unhappily married to their gear though...
 

jadis

Well-Known Member
Apr 28, 2010
12,352
5,467
2,810
Manila, Philippines
To me brand loyalty is not about the brand per se but its performance, and what it does to me. Since the mid 80s till the mid 90s, I have had 12 brands of loudspeakers till I hit my own Mt. Everest of speakers - the B&W 800 Matrix. After a few years I thought I was getting burned out the huge amount of bass that in the final analysis, intruded into my enjoyment; plus the fact that my musical genre had slowly shifted to vocals, acoustics, and intimate groups. I decided to buy a Magnepan 2.7QR to replace it and upon playing some of my favorite music, they put me in a smiling mood - until now - 21 years later. As luck would have it, they were mated with their in state relatives from Minnesota - the ARC amplifier, which is a popular match. I was not conscious of making it a brand loyalty thing, but these 2 brands stuck, and I'm happy they did.
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,522
10,688
3,515
USA
Peter, everyone finds some gem or the other. But you have stuck to the same brands across the chain... Your SME hasn't changed, your Magico hasn't, your pass hasn't. In fact, even with cartridges you stay put in the airtight supreme/opus MSL club.

Before SME I had Dual, Thorens, Denon and digital. Before Magico I had AR, Symdex and Eggleston. Before Pass I had NAD, Marantz and Technics.

There are many ways to improve. It is difficult to say if you stuck to them because they were the best value at your price point or because you did not want to change the brand. Had it been only one brand, I would have suspected the former. Will your next upgrade be on the Magico line? Will you investigate drastically alternate sounds before upgrading? Will you try a valve phono, or another SS phono? Other carts?

Lots of questions. All I can say is that I make purchase decisions about audio gear very slowly and deliberately. Sonics comes first, value comes second. Everything else comes after that. I try to audition and evaluate each potential component in my own system before buying.

Too loyal to your brands means you might be missing some value/sonic points that are better with other brands. I am fine with that in the case of Colgate but with hifi sticking to a brand because I have always used it becomes too costly a proposition.

I do not stick to a brand because I have always used it. I stay with a brand (sound, value, service, reliability) because I like it and prefer it to the alternatives that I have considered. I have switched brands, most recently from Eggleston to Magico and from Harmonic Technology to Transparent Audio. I agree that I might be missing some opportunities for a radically different type of sound, but that is not my interest, and I don't worry about it because I am too busy enjoying the music on my system. As others have said, I usually know what I want. I do get out to listen to other systems and components at dealers and in friends' systems. At this point in my system evolution, it is becoming more difficult to hear something, at a price that I can afford, that I think might sound better than what I already have if inserted into my system. However, I am always open to the possibility.

I have read many stories from audiophiles for whom switching brands just to try something new is actually what became too costly a proposition. As with many of my interests, if I like it, I tend to stick with it.

Someday, Kedar, you may have a system of your own, and then when it comes time to upgrade or improve a component, you will be able to add your perspective about brand loyalty.
 

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
8,683
4,473
963
Greater Boston
It is indeed about knowing what you want. I have always had the same concept of sound that I am looking for: incisive vividness and dynamics first, followed closely by believable tonality and 'presence' of sound. Lately resolution has come more to the forefront as well, but not displacing the above priorities. In fact, timbral resolution is closely related to believable tonality. Through the years I have purchased accordingly, and in a deliberately slow manner -- until recently, but that was also unwaveringly with the above priorities in mind. If knowing what you want leads to certain brand loyalties or loyalty to certain types of components, so be it. It is also a practical matter: if I could afford Spectral gear and would not be turned off by the fact that you almost have to be married to (expensive) MIT cables, I could easily envision having such SS amps instead of tube gear. So these are practical considerations, not considerations of principle, such as "I just don't like solid state".

As for Ked suggesting that you should experience all kinds of sounds, I can do that in systems of others, mostly friends. Again, I know what I want for myself. But if I remember correctly, it was also Ked who suggested a few years ago that I am not a real audiophile because I hardly ever change gear. In that sense, I fully have to agree with Mike:

and Ked is the last person to listen to on this subject.:rolleyes:
 
Last edited:

JimmyS

Well-Known Member
Sep 1, 2013
163
34
335
Chicago, IL
I guess for me its more of finding the pieces of the puzzle that fit and refining from there . For example:

Amps have gone from Pass XA30.5 -> XA60.5's ->XA100.5's
Digital has gone from PS Audio PWD -> dCS Debussy -> dCS Rossini -> dCS Vivaldi
Cables: Kubala Fascination -> Expression -> Emotion

While above may seem like brand loyalty, I continue to try other stuff to see what the new puzzle piece may reveal... for example, last time I was home I got to try the new Soulution 3 series pre and amp for a weekend.
 

RogerD

VIP/Donor
May 23, 2010
3,734
318
565
BiggestLittleCity
Hell, I have the same brands for 30 and 40 years. Is it loyalty or since the beginning I thought those pieces did things extremely well. Many ways to look at it, and it is a individual thing.
 

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
24,305
1,323
435
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
In holland bikers from other brands have a saying , if you start touring with a harley davidson make sure to bring a bag to collect all parts falling off , lol.
Because of the vibration of the big engine its happened quit a lot

I knew that, that's why Harley people travel with a van full of tools.
Turntable people also carry a toolbox.

Some people are loyal to Honda, Toyota, Tesla, Ford, GMC, Jaguar, BMW, Mercedes, ... and for all type of reasons.
Same with kitchen appliances; toaster, fridge, stove, microwave, juicer, coffee maker, ...

But it's the bread we toast in that toaster, the food we put in that fridge, the food we cook on that stove, the popcorn brand we pop, the fruits and vegetables we juice, the origin of the coffee beans...

...The one we ride with, the road we travel on, the highway, the countryside, the paysages/vistas, the comfort zone, the music playing. We are loyal to the music we like since we were kids...The Beatles, Bob Dylan, John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Beethoven, Mozart, Grace Jones, ...
___

 
Last edited:

treitz3

Super Moderator
Staff member
Dec 25, 2011
5,459
961
1,290
The tube lair in beautiful Rock Hill, SC
What does "too loyal to all your brands" mean?
When it comes down to buying the same brand after hearing something else that you know damned well sounds better.......but the excuses one puts in their own head to justify said purchase of the same brand overweight logic.

That, my friends, is too loyal.

Either go for the piece that catapults you to the next level or be a brand sucker. Just my 2 cents. To each, their own.

Tom
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing