Turntable Shootout in Italy

cjfrbw

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Apr 20, 2010
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This whole "I am there" vs. "They are here" thing has deteriorated into nonsense. It's really grasping at descriptors and distinctions that just reinforce prior opinions.
 

bonzo75

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We're all biased by experience, but that doesn't mean we can't gain additional experiences as we go. You seem to have made a lot of assumptions, TBH. I've changed directions and opinions on the best way to achieve the sound I have in my head many times over. The tube recording vs reproduction was a response to a previous post. And I haven't said that all SS is transparent. It most certainly is not. Class A is generally not transparent. Class AB is generally more so. Benchmark AHB2 fits the bill as a highly transparent SS amplifier, as one example.

Lastly, I'm really not sure what "they are here" means for orchestra. But if a listening room and chain can faithfully reproduce "you are there" for orchestral pieces - that's impressive. Mine has no hope.

Understand. I misinterpreted.
 

bonzo75

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This whole "I am there" vs. "They are here" thing has deteriorated into nonsense. It's really grasping at descriptors and distinctions that just reinforce prior opinions.

Yep. Based on what I read, it looks like I was right

I read, therefore I am (right)
 
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awsmone

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Apr 6, 2014
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I must admit I haven’t tried to produce one thing or the other, just get good reproduction of the recording, which has improved overtime

I find a combination of the recording and reproduction chain gives me different effects, not that I am trying for them

When a woman cough stage right up stage seemingly after Richter starts his part in the sonata, it’s honestly no added benefit to the effect, other than it seems to tell me a little about the hall, but I find her coughing annoying, and wish she were replaced by the quiet girl in the cafe to be honest ;)
 

bonzo75

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When a woman cough stage right up stage seemingly after Richter starts his part in the sonata, it’s honestly no added benefit to the effect, other than it seems to tell me a little about the hall, but I find her coughing annoying, and wish she were replaced by the quiet girl in the cafe to be honest ;)

There is a very prominent cough in the first few minutes of the Schreier / Richter winterreise on Melodiya. With SS phono you can really see deep into the guy's throat, and the gargle of the cough. With valve phonos the cough gets a bit rounded and sounds closer to me. It is more attacking and repulsive with the SS phono, and with the valve phono, I actually wished he continued to cough more. I have been to three winterreise concerts and each time a guy coughed, reminded me of how accurately my system produces the cough at home.

On another note, this recording for its hall ambience as well as both performers, I prefer to the Dietrich Fischer Landau / Gerald Moore where the voice is more close to the mike as in a studio, and the piano is less prominent
 
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awsmone

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Not arguing with your conclusion, just curious how it was reached. What sonic attributes of the class A amps do you find most objectionable?

It’s interesting

I have always been a fan of class A, but on my current speakers the AB work better and have no idea why

I don’t know about the transparency bit though, at least on paper class A should have lower distortion all else being the same
However recently there has been a trend to put class A with low or no NFB, this is not a function of class A but the circuit design choices of the engineer, as many believe it sounds better, though it measures worse, the whole debate about whether this is more or less coloured has already been argued in this forum
 

awsmone

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Apr 6, 2014
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There is a very prominent cough in the first few minutes of the Schreier / Richter winterreise on Melodiya. With SS phono you can really see deep into the guy's throat, and the gargle of the cough. With valve phonos the cough gets a bit rounded and sounds closer to me. It is more attacking and repulsive with the SS phono, and with the valve phono, I actually wished he continued to cough more. I have been to three winterreise concerts and each time a guy coughed, reminding me of how accurately my system produces the cough at home.

On another note, this recording for its hall ambience as well as both performers, I prefer to the Dietrich Fischer Landau / Gerald Moore where the voice is more close to the mike as in a studio, and the piano is less prominent

I had similar experience Ked

The RR recording I find the ambience over the top and wish there were less
The Janet Baker sea pictures I prefer the balance of the intimacy of her voice with the orchestra as a back drop, same with the Melodyia Oistrach richter Brahms Vioin sonatas with violin prominent piano more upstage

The Carrera Kyrie in Ramirez Missa Creole the voice is intimate, the choir right back, and the drum bounces of the hall walls, great recording
 

Tango

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There is a very prominent cough in the first few minutes of the Schreier / Richter winterreise on Melodiya. With SS phono you can really see deep into the guy's throat, and the gargle of the cough. With valve phonos the cough gets a bit rounded and sounds closer to me. It is more attacking and repulsive with the SS phono, and with the valve phono, I actually wished he continued to cough more. I have been to three winterreise concerts and each time a guy coughed, reminding me of how accurately my system produces the cough at home.

I get your point and where you are coming from. But really, I giggle while reading your comment on the freakin cough here :D. Really take the weight off my head after a long sales meeting at the office. Thank you.

Tang
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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Ked’s ultimate aim is to hear John Henry Bonham’s squeaking drum stool.
 

perart1

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Mar 17, 2012
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Worth buying just for the cough....sod the music:)

There is a very prominent cough in the first few minutes of the Schreier / Richter winterreise on Melodiya. With SS phono you can really see deep into the guy's throat, and the gargle of the cough. With valve phonos the cough gets a bit rounded and sounds closer to me. It is more attacking and repulsive with the SS phono, and with the valve phono, I actually wished he continued to cough more. I have been to three winterreise concerts and each time a guy coughed, reminding me of how accurately my system produces the cough at home.

On another note, this recording for its hall ambience as well as both performers, I prefer to the Dietrich Fischer Landau / Gerald Moore where the voice is more close to the mike as in a studio, and the piano is less prominent
 

853guy

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Aug 14, 2013
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If I feel transported to that small cafe with the girl singing in front of me, she is still there singing in front of me with the sound, acoustic and atmosphere of the cafe. If I don't hear all of that ambiance, then the perspective may seem more like she is in front of me in my listening room. I think it depends on what information is on the recording and if the system can reproduce it in a convincing manner.

Hello Peter,

Hope you are well.

I agree with your overall assessment.

From my perspective I believe we're discussing the following three realities:

1) Harmonic content differs greatly between a girl and her guitar versus an orchestra.

2) The amount of air that can be moved (or more technically, excited) by a girl and her guitar is much less than an orchestra.

3) Most girl and guitar recordings are more closely miked than most recordings of orchestras.

Therefore, the girl and guitar recording is much more likely to approach a “she is here” illusion, given the harmonic content and amount of air she and her guitar can move is less likely to impact the boundaries of a given acoustical space in the same way a hundred musicians will. In other words, her audible impact on the space around her will always be less than that of an orchestra, or indeed, a drum kit, piano, or a Marshall stack, or indeed anything with greater harmonic complexity and amplitude.

Given that most (but not all) modern recordings of vocalists are close-miked (1) and often in rooms in which reflections are minimised, the illusion of “she is here” is compounded because the “there” is further reduced relative to “here” - we hear more of the girl than we do the girl in the room.

Conversely, most (but not all) orchestral recordings place the mics at a much greater distance relative to the above scenario (although spot-miking is often used, particularly on scores composed for film), and more often with consideration of the acoustical space as an inherent part of the sound. “We are there” because we hear more of the “there” (the sound of the performers in the space in which the recording takes place), and for the reasons mentioned above.

While there are obviously exceptions in all cases to the above, the first two realities never change. All that changes is the distance of the mic relative to the performers, the pickup pattern of the mic, and the size of the acoustic space the performers are recorded in. Which mic is selected and where it is place will depend of the first two variables (harmonic content, amount of air that can be moved) relative to the acoustic signature of the space the recording takes place. “They are here” and “we are there” are primarily functions of those three things.

Best,

853guy


(1) Usually with a cardioid mic that will exhibit proximity boost of certain frequencies leading to greater (i.e. artificially boosted) harmonic content relative to an omni. This in itself produces a vocal that sounds more airy, not because there is more “air” around her, but solely because of the proximity of her mouth to the mic and the heightening of frequencies that would not be as prominent were the mic placed at a distance. It’s also why reverb and delay are common additions to close-miked vocals so “air” (i.e. the physical boundaries of the room) can be “restored”, albeit in an artificial way. Most modern vocal tracks feature extensive sonic massaging. We end up with a very hyper-real but completely non-real sense of what a vocal actually sounds like in a room. That’s not a criticism per se, just an observation of how most vocals are recorded in order to have presence in a mix of competing frequencies when heard over systems of lesser resolution (the mall, the car, Apple earbuds, most real-world hi-fi systems, et al.).
 

analogsa

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Apr 15, 2017
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However recently there has been a trend to put class A with low or no NFB

This trend concerns class AB amps in equal measure. Dartzeel, many of the Gryphons and a whole lot others, even one NAD. One would indeed expect amps without GNFB to be mostly class A designs, but in reality it is a more even distribution. This prompted my curiosity as of what sonic traits are objectionable in class A.
 

bazelio

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Sep 26, 2016
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Not arguing with your conclusion, just curious how it was reached. What sonic attributes of the class A amps do you find most objectionable?

Oh, I don't necessarily find them objectionable. The utmost in transparency is probably not what I'm going to achieve at the end of the day. And I don't own the Benchmark; I just sited it as an example. Sometimes I prefer the Class A grip and slam, colored low mids, L to R staging, saturated warmth, etc. It depends on degree for me. Lower order Class A harmonic distortion can also sometimes turn things in to a gooey mess. A chain full of tubes from front to back likewise almost always has other problems. Etc.... I'd agree this discussion has probably now steered too far off course.
 

perart1

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No....No; I write therefore i am right

Yep. Based on what I read, it looks like I was right

I read, therefore I am (right)
 

bonzo75

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theophile

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No....No; I write therefore i am right

To write can bcome a rite. Are we right to write as a rite? Sometimes when we write, we right wrongs. As a rite righting wrongs via writing feels right. Right? Write it off at your peril.
 

Pani

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Jun 4, 2013
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“They are here” vs “You are there” depends a lot on amplification design. An SET brings performers into the room. Push-Pull takes listener to the venue. That’s the difference Mike also heard when he compared ML3 vs Dartzeel. It is not SS vs Tube but SET vs Push-Pull
 

bonzo75

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“They are here” vs “You are there” depends a lot on amplification design. An SET brings performers into the room. Push-Pull takes listener to the venue. That’s the difference Mike also heard when he compared ML3 vs Dartzeel. It is not SS vs Tube but SET vs Push-Pull

This is not totally correct. Allowing transparency to recordings is what lets you are there. There are push pull valves and SS amps which do not do you are there and bring people into the room. If you read my Avalon report we kept Allnic phono and power amps, and by simply replacing Allnic pre to Soulution pre we got transparency to recordings getting you are there. We also tried the Edge and Vitus amps which did not help us in that regard.
 

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