Is a Lower Noise Floor, are "Blacker" Blacks, Consonant With the Music?

Ron Resnick · Feb 6, 2021

Joe Whip said:
When I think of the term blacker background, I think of being able to hear more of the room where the recording is made, subtle things, like a foot pedal a piano, the sound of people rustling in their seats, conversations, the snapping of fingers, etc, a lot of that stuff is captured on the recording and us audible as electric noise is removed.

I think I agree with you, and I think we are saying the same thing. I guess I just find "blacker background" to be a more cryptic (if more succinct) term, rather than the longer (but simpler for me) that reducing the background noise level allows previously obscured low-level information to become audible and intelligible. (In radio we would say that a signal which was previously "down in the noise" is now audible and intelligible.)

PeterA · Feb 6, 2021

Ron, this is an interesting subject for a thread. I see you started it a while ago.

I do not understand the penchant for "black backgrounds". I appreciate wanting to lower one's system's noise floor. We all want to hear more of what is on the recording. It usually leads to more engagement and musical enjoyment. However, I see "black backgrounds" as a coloration. I associate them with an absence of information. If one hears a "silence", a jet black background, I have found it is usually accompanied by a reduction of information, the subtle stuff embedded in the recording that brings the music, and the context in which it was created, to life.

Details may become more apparent, images and sounds starker and bolder, sonic attributes more audible, but I have found that it moves the presentation away from a more natural and convincing (realistic) experience. It is not music. It is artificial. It is hi-fi sounding.

I just returned from a trip spending six days listening to four supremely natural sounding systems. I would not describe one of them as having "black backgrounds". System noise floor was very low. These were high efficiency systems. I heard more information, more context, from these systems than I have ever heard from other systems. These systems simply presented the music.

So, to answer your question; No, I do not think black backgrounds are consonant with an involving experience of music presented by a audio system. In fact, it is just the opposite, in my experience.

Folsom · Feb 6, 2021

Gregadd said:
If no wanted musical signal is being applied there should be no sound reproduced. I suppose one could eliminate all background noise in a recording studio. Not so easy in live music. In a good concert hall I can actually hear a musician shift there seating position. Binaural recordings due an excellent job of of sniffing out background noise. All this comes form the recording or the room.
No noise should be produced by the equipment. No signal. No output. Total silence however is kind of spooky.

That is not how it works.

The noise that comes in from electrical things isn't coming out your speakers as an audible artifact. It's abberating the music itself. Imagine the sine wave for a flute. Now imagine it being changed by noises that reshapen it slightly as it is amplified. The process of applying a higher voltage into the signal, which causes gain (amplification), is where the noise affects the music.

Otherwise you would hear lots of noise without music playing. You don't... Also the tiny bit of fuzz you may hear at the speakers with your ear up against it doesn't magically only turn loud when music is playing, it stay at that level and is inconsequential to what you hear since it isn't abberating the music but comes out as it's own audible thing.

The phenomenon of blacker backgrounds is an interesting thing we can hear, but isn't always correlative with the reality of what is happening.

Think about live music, there is no such thing as a "blacker" background.

stehno · Feb 6, 2021

Too bad there's not an audio glossary and/or dictionary thread or category in this forum to at least begin to establish some common target on the wall. A reference if you will. That would show the industry is growing/maturing. Otherwise we just keep motoring on year after year using our own defintions thinking we're all on the same page with some of these terms and definitions when clearly we're not. Even Greg's post above is an example as he continues to think of a noise floor as some environmental thing (chldren playing, dogs barking, etc) when Ron clearly stated in his OP he's talking about a system's noise floor.

Oh, well. These dead horses has been beaten once again.

Gregadd · Feb 6, 2021

stehno said:
Too bad there's not an audio glossary and/or dictionary thread or category in this forum to at least begin to establish some common target on the wall. A reference if you will. That would show the industry is growing/maturing. Otherwise we just keep motoring on year after year using our own defintions thinking we're all on the same page with some of these terms and definitions when clearly we're not. Even Greg's post above is an example as he continues to think of a noise floor as some environmental thing (chldren playing, dogs barking, etc) when Ron clearly stated in his OP he's talking about a system's noise floor.

Oh, well. These dead horses has been beaten once again.

There is an audio glossary.
"Some things bear repeating."

Gregadd · Feb 6, 2021

Folsom said:
That is not how it works.

The noise that comes in from electrical things isn't coming out your speakers as an audible artifact. It's abberating the music itself. Imagine the sine wave for a flute. Now imagine it being changed by noises that reshapen it slightly as it is amplified. The process of applying a higher voltage into the signal, which causes gain (amplification), is where the noise affects the music.

Otherwise you would hear lots of noise without music playing. You don't... Also the tiny bit of fuzz you may hear at the speakers with your ear up against it doesn't magically only turn loud when music is playing, it stay at that level and is inconsequential to what you hear since it isn't abberating the music but comes out as it's own audible thing.

The phenomenon of blacker backgrounds is an interesting thing we can hear, but isn't always correlative with the reality of what is happening.

Think about live music, there is no such thing as a "blacker" background.

I don't there is any fundamental disagreement. Let us take salt for an analogy. If you put it on potato chips it is clear and distinct. But if you a tablespoon it affects the taste that is not clearly discernable as salt.
You are quite right noise can be mixed with the music. iIt also be clearly audible between notes, quiet passages or pauses in the music.

tima · Feb 7, 2021

Ron Resnick said:
I guess I just find "blacker background" to be a more cryptic (if more succinct) term, rather than the longer (but simpler for me) that reducing the background noise level allows previously obscured low-level information to become audible and intelligible.

I see the girls walk by dressed in their summer clothes
I have to turn my head until my darkness goes.

tima said:
"Wow. The Celebration hit a bullseye. The glockenspiel notes emerged from a velvet-black background sounding rich and three-dimensional, with convincing percussive impact and a pure bell-like tone, all rendered with in-the-room transparency. " Ref

"All for the better, building on the new amp's predecessor—which had, as I described in the original review, "high-frequency cleanness and transparency combined with as perfect a high-frequency transient response as I've heard from any amplifier, all emerging from velvety-black backdrops."" Ref

"Drums and flutes pop out of a deep black background as they echo throughout the reading of the mass and beyond the alter." Ref

...and so on.

Black background. It's classic reviewer-speak, or more gently perhaps, a limitation in the standard audiophile vocabulary. The attempt to describe ... what? Some will say a lower noise floor, others the absence of noise, the space between the notes, quietude, silence (S&G), the absence of ambience. Being (white) and Nothingness (black) - with apologies to Sarte - in which case there is no "greater black." Sometimes adjectives get attached to characterize the adjective - Fremer likes "velvet-black" - perhaps to give the black some texture.

Sometimes the "observation" of a black background is applied to components, sometimes to records. Either way it's something we hear by way of comparison, or don't hear. What 'it' is, is the "background" - presumably that against which something else ... what? Appears? Exists? Emerges from? Or is in contrast to? Presumably it's always there? We couldn't have music without silence ... blah blah blah.

Certainly some audiophiles (synthesists?) enjoy it or at least use it because it's an easy phrase and after all, that's what the review said. Digerati love to contrast it to the surface noise of a record.

I'm inclined to agree with Al (above) that it is artificial. But it's very real, certainly the phrase usage is, but moreso some components certainly sound quieter than others, some records are quieter than others - if that's what people mean. But it's artificial in the sense that it reflects the absence of information, and that absence is usually intentional. It is a filtering out.

What do you hear when you go to a concert hall? You certainly don't hear black background. You do hear (perhaps) the contrast between the orchestra playing and not playing, whether that is from rests in the music or between movements. But that's not black. Things should be quieter in the recording studio - is there black there?

Roger Skoff (what a great name for a forum member) wrote a piece on Positive Feedback from which I'll quote a bit:

"Musical backgrounds aren't black. Even if recorded in an open space, the venue is almost always filled with the sounds of other instruments or performers, and with the ambient noise of the venue itself. That makes the background almost always "white," and the better the background can be recorded and the better it can be retrieved and recreated by your playback equipment, the more realistic your sound will be, and the more music will be there for you to enjoy." What isn't Black? Roger Skoff Writes about the Real Sound of Sound

Pardon for self-quoting.
I see people turn their heads and quickly look away.
We've seen it here before.
Like a newborn baby, it just happens every day.

Gregadd said:
"Some things bear repeating."

Blackness / Black Background

heh - I blame reviewers.

stehno · Feb 7, 2021

mm

tima said:
Wow. The Celebration hit a bullseye. The glockenspiel notes emerged from a velvet-black background sounding rich and three-dimensional, with convincing percussive impact and a pure bell-like tone, all rendered with in-the-room transparency. " Ref

"All for the better, building on the new amp's predecessor—which had, as I described in the original review, "high-frequency cleanness and transparency combined with as perfect a high-frequency transient response as I've heard from any amplifier, all emerging from velvety-black backdrops."" Ref

"Drums and flutes pop out of a deep black background as they echo throughout the reading of the mass and beyond the alter." Ref

...and so on.

Black background. It's classic reviewer-speak, or more gently perhaps, a limitation in the standard audiophile vocabulary. The attempt to describe ... what? Some will say a lower noise floor, others the absence of noise, the space between the notes, quietude, silence (S&G), the absence of ambience. Being (white) and Nothingness (black) - with apologies to Sarte - in which case there is no "greater black." Sometimes adjectives get attached to characterize the adjective - Fremer likes "velvet-black" - perhaps to give the black some texture.

Sometimes the "observation" of a black background is applied to components, sometimes to records. Either way it's something we hear by way of comparison, or don't hear. What 'it' is, is the "background" - presumably that against which something else ... what? Appears? Exists? Emerges from? Or is in contrast to? Presumably it's always there? We couldn't have music without silence ... blah blah blah.

Certainly some audiophiles (synthesists?) enjoy it or at least use it because it's an easy phrase and after all, that's what the review said. Digerati love to contrast it to the surface noise of a record.

I'm inclined to agree with Al (above) that it is artificial. But it's very real, certainly the phrase usage is, but moreso some components certainly sound quieter than others, some records are quieter than others - if that's what people mean. But it's artificial in the sense that it reflects the absence of information, and that absence is usually intentional. It is a filtering out.

What do you hear when you go to a concert hall? You certainly don't hear black background. You do hear (perhaps) the contrast between the orchestra playing and not playing, whether that is from rests in the music or between movements. But that's not black. Things should be quieter in the recording studio - is there black there?

Roger Skoff (what a great name for a forum member) wrote a piece on Positive Feedback from which I'll quote a bit:

"Musical backgrounds aren't black. Even if recorded in an open space, the venue is almost always filled with the sounds of other instruments or performers, and with the ambient noise of the venue itself. That makes the background almost always "white," and the better the background can be recorded and the better it can be retrieved and recreated by your playback equipment, the more realistic your sound will be, and the more music will be there for you to enjoy." What isn't Black? Roger Skoff Writes about the Real Sound of Sound

Well said. Again. BTW, I love your coinage, "Absence of ambience" cuz that's exactly what I think every time I hear somebody use the "blacker background" claim. Actually I kinda' cringe because the volumes of ambience alone in live performance or playback presentation is what IMO determines the level of musicality (during playback) and iveliness and quite possibly the best measuring characteristic/tool our ears have for determining how close / far we are from the live performance and/or the absolute sound.

There was one thing you said that raised my eyebrows if I interpreted correctly. The noise floor itself is not necessarily generating audible noise. Rather I see it as a threshold or a marker floating up / down on a vertical scale. All signal info processed below this threshold remains inaudilbe and the speaker and vice versa for all signal info processed above this threshold such that at the speaker we hear only a percentage the 100% music info embedded in the recording. Though it may, I'm not aware that the noise floor level itself generates any audilble noise.

tima said:
Blackness / Black Background

Ahhhh, there it is.... Thx

RBFC · Feb 7, 2021

Ron,

I truly marvel at your ability to bring up topics which touch on aspects of music reproduction that are not often discussed.

Any recording venue has an inherent noise "signature", and it perhaps adds to the individuality of recordings produced there. When we overlay noise from our playback system, it follows that we are obscuring the minutae which help to create that atmosphere of the original venue.

Lee

RBFC · Feb 7, 2021

Another consideration is the environment in which the speaker designer voices their speakers. Some dipoles, for instance, rely heavily on back wave reflections to create "ambiance" or "atmosphere" in playback. I know that both positioning and rear wave damping greatly affected the sound field achieved by my old Apogee Full Ranges. More questions than answers!

Lee

Folsom · Feb 7, 2021

Gregadd said:
I don't there is any fundamental disagreement. Let us take salt for an analogy. If you put it on potato chips it is clear and distinct. But if you a tablespoon it affects the taste that is not clearly discernable as salt.
You are quite right noise can be mixed with the music. iIt also be clearly audible between notes, quiet passages or pauses in the music.

The stuff you hear between notes and quiet passages is utterly innocuous to the actual music being played however as it doesn't abberate the music itself. The stuff you can't hear however does, because it's in a high frequency spectrum that affects electronics differently.

marmota · Feb 7, 2021

This is a very interesting topic.

I've always thought that the blacker the background, the better (ie: what we all know, more relaxed sound, more unforced detail, etc)...but, at least with headphones, I had a experience that did not match it entirely, it was more a sidegrade than anything.
At that time, I listened to a MSB DAC (can't remember which one, but a discontinued model) via Stax SR-007 MK2 & BHSE, and it had a mega black background, but, at the cost of reduced ambient information compared to the other DAC present (Yggdrasil gen 1), you could clearly hear that it omitted details to achieve that all black background. Gen 1 Yggy is not a saint of my devotion either (IMO, sounds a tad mushy yet with incisive transients), but the difference was there.

I think that, achieving a super black background without compromising microdetails and ambient info is very difficult to achieve. In fact, when I think about what I would consider my dream sound, I imagine a very dark blue background, and not a completely black one (similar to watching the stars in a town with very low pollution, their background is not fully black, yet you can see the stars clearly).

Robh3606 · Feb 7, 2021

Interesting conversation. I always considered a "black background" as an absence of obvious system noise. I don't see how it can be to "dark" WRT noise. The lower the noise floor the better. I don't see how an absence of noise is going to effect the ability to hear reverb trails or a person coughing on a live recording or fingering on guitar strings. I see noise as the enemy that will blur the detail. I like having a system that I can't tell it's on unless there in music playing.

Rob

PeterA · Feb 7, 2021

Ron, when you say “black backgrounds“ are you talking about when music is playing or when the system is on and music is not playing?

I always assumed you meant what we hear while listening to music.

marmota · Feb 7, 2021

Robh3606 said:
Interesting conversation. I always considered a "black background" as an absence of obvious system noise. I don't see how it can be to "dark" WRT noise. The lower the noise floor the better. I don't see how an absence of noise is going to effect the ability to hear reverb trails or a person coughing on a live recording or fingering on guitar strings. I see noise as the enemy that will blur the detail. I like having a system that I can't tell it's on unless there in music playing.

Rob

That's a very logical, rational observation. In principle, I want the same as you, but I also think that in practice, there are lots of factors that may play a role in that black background that may affect some aspects of the sound. It would be super interesting if someone builds a Hifi system from scratch, controlling all variables of it, electricity system included, to determine and nail what's going on.
To put another example, there's people that prefers the sound of their mains AC supply vs batteries, claiming that the batteries have a blacker background at the cost of reduced dynamics. In theory, this shouldn't happen if the batteries have more current capacity than needed for the system, yet in practice the user reports are all over the place.
I'm not saying that noise is a desirable trait for liveliness and dynamics, far from it, but clearly something is going on there that is not being investigated accordingly, IMHO.

Robh3606 · Feb 7, 2021

marmota said:
That's a very logical, rational observation. In principle, I want the same as you, but I also think that in practice, there are lots of factors that may play a role in that black background that may affect some aspects of the sound. It would be super interesting if someone builds a Hifi system from scratch, controlling all variables of it, electricity system included, to determine and nail what's going on.
To put another example, there's people that prefers the sound of their mains AC supply vs batteries, claiming that the batteries have a blacker background at the cost of reduced dynamics. In theory, this shouldn't happen if the batteries have more current capacity than needed for the system, yet in practice the user reports are all over the place.
I'm not saying that noise is a desirable trait for liveliness and dynamics, far from it, but clearly something is going on there that is not being investigated accordingly, IMHO.

How are they running on batteries? That's DC so are they reconverting to AC? As far as current draw I have a hard time imagining a battery system with the same instantaneous current capability compared to a standard power outlet. Must be a very expensive proposition.

As you say though it is curious and it seems another trade off in a hobby loaded with trade offs. I guess things really don't change all that much. Pick your poison!

Rob

marmota · Feb 7, 2021

Robh3606 said:
How are they running on batteries? That's DC so are they reconverting to AC? As far as current draw I have a hard time imagining a battery system with the same instantaneous current capability compared to a standard power outlet. Must be a very expensive proposition.

Indeed it is expensive, check this solution:

Pure Music Battery Power Supply | System Optimisation | Living Voice

The Living Voice Pure Music high capacity'off-grid' battery power system is designed to optimise the performance of the complete audio system.

www.livingvoice.co.uk

The big Living Voice system in Munich, every year is run off batteries, indepentenly of the mains, not regenerated AC.

That's just one option, then there are the Stromtanks or the equipment that can be used with battery power, such as the Siltech preamp that has the option of being operated via mains power or internal battery power. I believe there's a post in WBF comparing both modes.

Robh3606 said:
As you say though it is curious and it seems another trade off in a hobby loaded with trade offs. I guess things really don't change all that much. Pick your poison!

Rob

Yes, is beautiful, so many ways to achieve a dream sound, none of them conclusive or absolute

stehno · Feb 7, 2021

marmota said:
That's a very logical, rational observation. In principle, I want the same as you, but I also think that in practice, there are lots of factors that may play a role in that black background that may affect some aspects of the sound.

It would help if we're all using similar definitions and/or understandings of blacker backgrounds, noise, noise floors, etc. because until then we're potentially talking apples and oranges.

marmota said:
It would be super interesting if someone builds a Hifi system from scratch, controlling all variables of it, electricity system included, to determine and nail what's going on.

Who knows all the variables much less possess the ability to sufficiently control all of them?

marmota said:
To put another example, there's people that prefers the sound of their mains AC supply vs batteries, claiming that the batteries have a blacker background at the cost of reduced dynamics.

Sure there are. But considering that few seem to agree even on definitions and understandings, do they really know what they are saying? And if they do, do we really comprehend what they are saying?

I seriously doubt it.

marmota said:
In theory, this shouldn't happen if the batteries have more current capacity than needed for the system, yet in practice the user reports are all over the place.
I'm not saying that noise is a desirable trait for liveliness and dynamics, far from it,

What "noise" are you speaking of? Audible noise or inaudible distortive noise? Why would anybody associate desirable "noise" with iveliness and dynamics?

marmota said:
but clearly something is going on there that is not being investigated accordingly, IMHO.

Excellent observation. And though I'm sure there's a good half-dozen reasons why nobody is investigating, my best guess is ignorance. I speculate that the vast majority of audible and inaudible distortions (noise) that make up the bulk of a given playback system's noise floor (not audible noise) is all facets of electrical current flow. First the noisy, dirty, unconditiioned, unpurified, etc AC coming in from the street. Second is the additional distortions (noise) picked up along the electrical signal path from the instant music info is read from the recording to the time the electrical signal is converted to mechanical at the speaker drivers.

One reason why I'd venture it's not being investigated is because few if any think this aspect has much of a negative impact on our systems. Whereas I'm convinced it is by far the largest negatvie impact on a playback system's level of musicality. Bar none. IMO, this so-called noise or much raised noise floor is rendering inaudible at the speaker great percentages of the music info read and processed.

marmota · Feb 8, 2021

stehno said:
It would help if we're all using similar definitions and/or understandings of blacker backgrounds, noise, noise floors, etc. because until then we're potentially talking apples and oranges.

Read OP.

stehno said:
Who knows all the variables much less possess the ability to sufficiently control all of them?

Read what you quoted: "it would be super interesting if..."

stehno said:
Sure there are. But considering that few seem to agree even on definitions and understandings, do they really know what they are saying? And if they do, do we really comprehend what they are saying?

I seriously doubt it.

That tone...don't be this guy:

stehno said:
What "noise" are you speaking of? Audible noise or inaudible distortive noise? Why would anybody associate desirable "noise" with iveliness and dynamics?

Audible or inaudible is poor wording, IMO. I'm talking about the "less audible" noise, the subjective black space between sounds in a soundstage.

stehno said:
Excellent observation.

Thank you!

stehno said:
And though I'm sure there's a good half-dozen reasons why nobody is investigating, my best guess is ignorance. I speculate that the vast majority of audible and inaudible distortions (noise) that make up the bulk of a given playback system's noise floor (not audible noise) is all facets of electrical current flow. First the noisy, dirty, unconditiioned, unpurified, etc AC coming in from the street. Second is the additional distortions (noise) picked up along the electrical signal path from the instant music info is read from the recording to the time the electrical signal is converted to mechanical at the speaker drivers.

One reason why I'd venture it's not being investigated is because few if any think this aspect has much of a negative impact on our systems. Whereas I'm convinced it is by far the largest negatvie impact on a playback system's level of musicality. Bar none. IMO, this so-called noise or much raised noise floor is rendering inaudible at the speaker great percentages of the music info read and processed.

You may be onto something here, very clever observation.

thedudeabides · Feb 8, 2021

Black background. Elimination of extraneous hardware noise without compromising the integrity and transparency of the reproduced musical signal.

Is a Lower Noise Floor, are "Blacker" Blacks, Consonant With the Music?

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