Is a Lower Noise Floor, are "Blacker" Blacks, Consonant With the Music?

cjfrbw

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I live in an area where there are some fluctuations in the grid. I sometimes think that having a large, power consuming government lab nearby may influence this by mopping the grid at certain times. Sometimes the grid is "soft" and sometimes it is "hard", or so it seems.

I can live with fluctuations, because the major fluctuation will never be entirely vanquished i.e gremlins, which are emotional, biologic, hormonal, circumstantial, and barometric (temperature, humidity, ionization of air etc.) as much as actual circuit related. I am zen with reasonable fluctuations and noise without feeling the need to vanquish or "conquer" them. That means more time to listen and enjoy, and less time obsessing about minutiae. What I read on the blogs are audiophiles who think they can standardize their internal states and music responses by manipulating the environment in various, controlling ways.

Also, vinyl will never be noise free. There is a certain amount of noise floor, bass rumble with vinyl that I am actually fond of. I even like asymmetric pops and clicks, because they have transient, sonic spectra that I like, and explore the spatiality of the medium. Since I like it, it is good enough for me.

Of course, there are tube antiquarians who believe that noise dither from AC filaments in directly heated triodes are essential the the best possible sound. I won't argue or agree, except to say they may have a point.
 
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Ron Resnick

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Using mains conditioners that are unable to supply the instantaneous current requirements of the larger solid state amps is an example Ron. Another is using balanced wiring when the component is not properly balanced (just has XLR sockets) - I know some will contest this but this is my experience. Using cables that are built with characteristics to tailor the sound such as high inductance.

I think those are good examples. Thank you.
 

Folsom

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Many audiophiles strive to lower the noise floor of their systems by various means. Many audiophiles install elaborate electrical infrastructures such as dedicated sub-panels and dedicated electrical lines ("circuits") to improve power flow and to reduce the noise in the AC powering their components. Some audiophiles use balanced-power and isolation transformers (e.g., Equi-Tech, Torus) and power regenerators (e.g., PS Audio) and battery storage systems (e.g., Stromtank) to provide pure, noise-free power to their components. Many audiophiles use balanced interconnects in an effort to reduce noise and immunize the signal from sources of noise. Some audiophiles use special after-market grounding box components (e.g., Tripoint, Entreq, Nordost) to minimize ground noise issues and to prevent noise or interference from adulterating the audio signal and for other reasons.

Let's stipulate that these exertions succeed in lowering the noise floors of our systems, in eliminating electrical gremlins, in resisting EMI/RFI, in making "blacker" blacks.

But what have we accomplished musically? Is a cleaner, noise-scrubbed, more sterile signal consonant with reproducing the sounds of the music we hear in the concert hall or in the jazz club?

Is any of the naturalness or the richness or the organic-ness of live music removed, or is any of the visceral, emotional content of the music lost, even as "blacker" backgrounds and quieter systems are gained?

Ron... You name a dozen types of things that reduce enoise. Then you follow up by naming the devices that deliberately increase enoise (grounding devices). It's like throwing acids and bases into a pot to test if your chili needed more acidity to it. While both can be beneficial, it makes no sense to discuss them like they're equals.

Grounding boxes will not, and cannot do the things you say. I know I talked about making some diagrams to help show this awhile back, my apologies I have not got to it yet.

Anyways to get to the actual matter. The most fundamentally important thing to note:

Enoise (electrical noise) does not directly translate to Anoise (acoustic noise). It would be an artifact were it a separate entity within the music. But what is the most common is it causes aberrations of music itself.

EX of an aberration: a violin doesn't sound quiet right. But generally most stereos are fairly decent so you don't know what didn't sound right, until it sounds more right (a less perverted version by enoise manipulating the authenticity of the source).

One of the most common characteristics of enoise affecting the music is that it sounds fatiguing. What frequencies cause this is up for debate, and so is how they traverse the electronics inside a component. While a grounding box introduces enoise that many find beneficial, enoise from the AC receptacle does not share the wide accolades. But how do you describe the fatigue? A lot of things can sound piercing, and make you keep the volume lower. A lot of the music can be just too in-your-face.

So your question, are you stealing any life from the music by getting rid of enoise (from AC)? That depends partly on your hearing, and the rest on your stereo & music choice. People that have somewhat muted hearing probably hate to get rid of enoise that brings a little "life" to an otherwise dull landscape of music. But some manufacturers try to account for harshness of the enoise on the AC system, in the electronics components or speakers. When they do that you're presented with the complication of using any device that reduces enoise, that will provide better sonic attributes, but will also shove the stereo into an over dullized state. So you gain one good things and lose another. For this reason I actually really don't like when manufactures do that. It complicates thing so much so, that in order to make stuff right you're faced with component replacement or modification - at least to get the best sound possible. Because the enoise is causing the source to be changed (not artifacts), there's no way to get the ultimate fidelity by voicing equipment to compensate for enoise from the AC.

Now onto music choices... You will find music selections that sound harsh on a stereo with plenty of enoise and no manufacturer "corrections". But on a stereo without so much enoise you it may sound just right. You'll never find a stereo that can make all music just right. Sometimes the selections of music are just fatiguing from the studio, or so laid back you don't know what to do. You'll just have to try different albums to get a sort of idea where they land.

As far as organic or natural sound, by and large the less enoise the better they are, by far. But that has a certain prerequisite that the album is up to snuff. The question is, if these prerequisites of the album & stereo are all met, are your needs met? For many the answer is no, and they prefer to add some enoise back in through the use of grounding boxes because it enhances the experience of particular things they want, without adding the fatigue they get from the AC sourced enoise. The conclusion I have is that the ultimate in organic and natural sound will stem from the lowest enoise (including grounding devices), but it's got conditions that may exceed what people can cope with.


Now where things get very complicated when trying to reduce your enoise.

A number of manufacturers integrate in their own methods of reducing enoise into their equipment. It's a nice gesture but the problem is they're often not done very well. A little bit is better than none at all, right? No, actually. The problem is that when you want to further reduce the enoise from the AC, you have to select a power conditioner/thing that doesn't mind the half-right manufacturers attempt to do so... What I mean is a power conditioner you try may cause further problems due to either it's own design problem, or the manufacturers ignorance with their design in the (for ex) amp. Sadly there is no way for the end user to really be able to know any better about what's going on, without asking someone that would know.

In general I'd rate the entire industries abilities to competently deal with enoise from AC at like a 3 out of 10. Many are clueless, and just as many have backgrounds that might work for RF transmission but don't for audio.




Using mains conditioners that are unable to supply the instantaneous current requirements of the larger solid state amps is an example Ron. Another is using balanced wiring when the component is not properly balanced (just has XLR sockets) - I know some will contest this but this is my experience. Using cables that are built with characteristics to tailor the sound such as high inductance.

Well, it isn't about instantaneous current. That's a myth. But what's happening is a LOT of devices cannot flow the amount of current needed without making the voltage flop on it's face. There are so many reason for that. And it gets more complicated because some of them are causing transformers in the device to do the same thing. The issues are so vast that if I release a conditioner I plan to make a list of gear that hates it, or that I have to modify the conditioner to work with... All the different designers will have different ideas about "correct". Sadly there is no one stop for all version that can be made through ingenuity and cost-no-object - another myth in the electronics design world of marketing. But there are ones that I'd call a safe bet for most equipment.

It's not an opinion or experience about the XLR cables, audiophile have tested slews of equipment to find out that a lot are not actually balanced, or have a shield. At least CH precision doens't hide the fact that their balanced cables have zero shield because they prefer the sound. I cannot speak for all the other cables other than people have the desire to hear "different" so there you have it, wonky cables.
 

Barry2013

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A bit late to this thread but having used Entreq grounding and cable for some years now (full details on my profile) I can readily attest to the very real benefits of the Entreq applications.
Audiocrack and ML's posts chrystalise the benefits superbly when they refer to the music sounding less mechanical and the exposing of the ambient reality of the music.
 

Pb Blimp

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Using mains conditioners that are unable to supply the instantaneous current requirements of the larger solid state amps is an example Ron. Another is using balanced wiring when the component is not properly balanced (just has XLR sockets) - I know some will contest this but this is my experience. Using cables that are built with characteristics to tailor the sound such as high inductance.

Yep. As Mike said very well, the pursuit yields great reward but execution matters just like everything else in this hobby.

In addition to getting the power and grounding right and choosing quiet well designed gear (love my Soulutions in this regard), the other area I spent a great deal of time and resources on was room isolation. This was about noise floor more for than keeping the room from disturbing others in the house as its mostly me and my wife now and she is normally quite far away in the house. My room is completely silent and this is wonderful for getting the full benefit from a low electrical noise floor, but equally as important IMO. Like the reference to the office building earlier in the thread, you don't realize how important this is until you sit down in a perfectly silent room and start the system.

This concept of isolation is, of course, completely separate from treating the room for proper reflection and absorption for sound stage, ringing and energy optimization. Behind the wall surface are double wall of Rockwool, a layer of Mass Loaded Vinyl, and double Quietrock with Green Glue. Double sealed solid wood doors (one over 200 lbs of solid Walnut from Timbernation). I also use a separate Mitsubishi HVAC with a hepa filter system (in case smoke somehow gets in the room) that has all insulated ducts with a wedge pattern of insulation baffles that makes it completely silent. When you can hear a pin drop the micro-dynamics are really cool.
 
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Loheswaran

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Hi Ron
I may not be any form of authority on this, but having read around, and then applied to my system I get the following.

Power conditioning etc

Many power units end up compressing dynamics - if you read through the blurb on the LAvardin site it makes sense - as does the science - that said getting a dedicated mains was a total revelation to me and is about the single most cost effective mod a person can do - it had the effect of getting rid of hash and seemingly slowing down the sound because everything just sounded clearer and better defined.

In terms of turntables I find that getting rid of a noise floor is of huge benefit because it allows one to hear what is on the record better.

I observe that a lot of people here think that once a certain volume is reached we don't hear the floor. I think that is nonsense - I consider clearing up the noise floor is like wiping a camera lens. We hear it no matter what - providing it comes from your system.
 

RogerD

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Regardless of the banter star or single point grounding works when implemented fully which most do not know how to. Low noise floors produce audio signals without imperfection. All these issues can be limited to the extent that for the most part you hear everything on the recording. Which Is the goal..at least that’s my goal.
 
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Folsom

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Hi Ron
I may not be any form of authority on this, but having read around, and then applied to my system I get the following.

Power conditioning etc

Many power units end up compressing dynamics - if you read through the blurb on the LAvardin site it makes sense - as does the science - that said getting a dedicated mains was a total revelation to me and is about the single most cost effective mod a person can do - it had the effect of getting rid of hash and seemingly slowing down the sound because everything just sounded clearer and better defined.

In terms of turntables I find that getting rid of a noise floor is of huge benefit because it allows one to hear what is on the record better.

I observe that a lot of people here think that once a certain volume is reached we don't hear the floor. I think that is nonsense - I consider clearing up the noise floor is like wiping a camera lens. We hear it no matter what - providing it comes from your system.

Where on their website? I have looked at their memory distortion stuff and it is ok.
 

microstrip

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There is a contrary view that balanced power devices sacrifice some “musicality,” and that single-ended interconnects sound more natural than balanced interconnects. I don’t know if this is true, but, if it is true, I suspect it has something to do with the balancing action in each case reducing even order harmonic information at the same time it reduces common mode noise.

IMHO we should not mix a debate on balanced power with a debate on balanced signal - they are too different to be joined in the same sentence.

I have never read that balanced power devices (output) sacrifice some “musicality" - except from people that object to any kind of isolation transformers. Some people preferred non balanced (output) power - but is this case this was probably due to other differences in the transformer.

Do you want to debate interconnects per se, or the electronics that drive them and receive their signals?
 

Audiocrack

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Ron... You name a dozen types of things that reduce enoise. Then you follow up by naming the devices that deliberately increase enoise (grounding devices). It's like throwing acids and bases into a pot to test if your chili needed more acidity to it. While both can be beneficial, it makes no sense to discuss them like they're equals.

Grounding boxes will not, and cannot do the things you say. I know I talked about making some diagrams to help show this awhile back, my apologies I have not got to it yet.

Anyways to get to the actual matter. The most fundamentally important thing to note:

Enoise (electrical noise) does not directly translate to Anoise (acoustic noise). It would be an artifact were it a separate entity within the music. But what is the most common is it causes aberrations of music itself.

EX of an aberration: a violin doesn't sound quiet right. But generally most stereos are fairly decent so you don't know what didn't sound right, until it sounds more right (a less perverted version by enoise manipulating the authenticity of the source).

One of the most common characteristics of enoise affecting the music is that it sounds fatiguing. What frequencies cause this is up for debate, and so is how they traverse the electronics inside a component. While a grounding box introduces enoise that many find beneficial, enoise from the AC receptacle does not share the wide accolades. But how do you describe the fatigue? A lot of things can sound piercing, and make you keep the volume lower. A lot of the music can be just too in-your-face.

So your question, are you stealing any life from the music by getting rid of enoise (from AC)? That depends partly on your hearing, and the rest on your stereo & music choice. People that have somewhat muted hearing probably hate to get rid of enoise that brings a little "life" to an otherwise dull landscape of music. But some manufacturers try to account for harshness of the enoise on the AC system, in the electronics components or speakers. When they do that you're presented with the complication of using any device that reduces enoise, that will provide better sonic attributes, but will also shove the stereo into an over dullized state. So you gain one good things and lose another. For this reason I actually really don't like when manufactures do that. It complicates thing so much so, that in order to make stuff right you're faced with component replacement or modification - at least to get the best sound possible. Because the enoise is causing the source to be changed (not artifacts), there's no way to get the ultimate fidelity by voicing equipment to compensate for enoise from the AC.

Now onto music choices... You will find music selections that sound harsh on a stereo with plenty of enoise and no manufacturer "corrections". But on a stereo without so much enoise you it may sound just right. You'll never find a stereo that can make all music just right. Sometimes the selections of music are just fatiguing from the studio, or so laid back you don't know what to do. You'll just have to try different albums to get a sort of idea where they land.

As far as organic or natural sound, by and large the less enoise the better they are, by far. But that has a certain prerequisite that the album is up to snuff. The question is, if these prerequisites of the album & stereo are all met, are your needs met? For many the answer is no, and they prefer to add some enoise back in through the use of grounding boxes because it enhances the experience of particular things they want, without adding the fatigue they get from the AC sourced enoise. The conclusion I have is that the ultimate in organic and natural sound will stem from the lowest enoise (including grounding devices), but it's got conditions that may exceed what people can cope with.


Now where things get very complicated when trying to reduce your enoise.

A number of manufacturers integrate in their own methods of reducing enoise into their equipment. It's a nice gesture but the problem is they're often not done very well. A little bit is better than none at all, right? No, actually. The problem is that when you want to further reduce the enoise from the AC, you have to select a power conditioner/thing that doesn't mind the half-right manufacturers attempt to do so... What I mean is a power conditioner you try may cause further problems due to either it's own design problem, or the manufacturers ignorance with their design in the (for ex) amp. Sadly there is no way for the end user to really be able to know any better about what's going on, without asking someone that would know.

In general I'd rate the entire industries abilities to competently deal with enoise from AC at like a 3 out of 10. Many are clueless, and just as many have backgrounds that might work for RF transmission but don't for audio.






Well, it isn't about instantaneous current. That's a myth. But what's happening is a LOT of devices cannot flow the amount of current needed without making the voltage flop on it's face. There are so many reason for that. And it gets more complicated because some of them are causing transformers in the device to do the same thing. The issues are so vast that if I release a conditioner I plan to make a list of gear that hates it, or that I have to modify the conditioner to work with... All the different designers will have different ideas about "correct". Sadly there is no one stop for all version that can be made through ingenuity and cost-no-object - another myth in the electronics design world of marketing. But there are ones that I'd call a safe bet for most equipment.

It's not an opinion or experience about the XLR cables, audiophile have tested slews of equipment to find out that a lot are not actually balanced, or have a shield. At least CH precision doens't hide the fact that their balanced cables have zero shield because they prefer the sound. I cannot speak for all the other cables other than people have the desire to hear "different" so there you have it, wonky cables.

Claiming / stating (all) grounding boxes increase noise is nonsense. You have no actual experience with any of the Tripoint products.
 

Sablon Audio

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There is definitely a tipping point when lowering the noise floor can lose that ‘audiophile umami’ causing things to sound overdamped and uninvolving. Quite a subjective area though, which will vary between systems and individuals however ime parallel devices do less damage than those in series, directly in the signal path. My bete noir appears to be transformer coupling, as Bill has alluded to with xlr to rca converters.
 

stehno

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Many audiophiles strive to lower the noise floor of their systems by various means. Many audiophiles install elaborate electrical infrastructures such as dedicated sub-panels and dedicated electrical lines ("circuits") to improve power flow and to reduce the noise in the AC powering their components. Some audiophiles use balanced-power and isolation transformers (e.g., Equi-Tech, Torus) and power regenerators (e.g., PS Audio) and battery storage systems (e.g., Stromtank) to provide pure, noise-free power to their components. Many audiophiles use balanced interconnects in an effort to reduce noise and immunize the signal from sources of noise. Some audiophiles use special after-market grounding box components (e.g., Tripoint, Entreq, Nordost) to minimize ground noise issues and to prevent noise or interference from adulterating the audio signal and for other reasons.
Perhaps "noise floor" needs to be more clearly defined somewhere. But you did specify a playback system's noise floor. so we can exclude noisy children, barking dogs, etc which some may also label as an environemental noise floor but has zero to do with a playback system's noise floor. IMO, a given playback system's noise floor is the cumulative total of all audible and inaudible distortions that impact the input signal as it travels throughout the playback system's signal path.

The measure of a noise floor determines what percentage of the music info read and processed will remain audible (above the noise floor) at the speaker as well as determine the percentage of the music info read and processed will remain inaudible (below the noise floor) at the speaker. If and it is so, that percentages of music info read and processed remains below the noise floor and rendered inaudible at the speaker, that should imply that the percentage of music info remaining audible (above the noise floor) at the speaker will sound corrupted or distorted because percentages of that music info cannot be heard.

Given your implication above, some-to-many already realize that the AC coming in from the street is dirty, noisy, unclean, etc, and negatively impacts a playback presentation, I think it safe to say that a playback system's noise floor includes all distortions starting at the electrical service panel and ends at the speaker drivers. Yes, one could say the noise floor starts at the electrical power plant but since that's outside our scope, the service panel is as good a place as any to start with purifying the noisy AC and hence, begin lowering the playback system's noise floor.

Let's stipulate that these exertions succeed in lowering the noise floors of our systems, in eliminating electrical gremlins, in resisting EMI/RFI, in making "blacker" blacks.
As discussed in another thread, (started by me I think) a blacker blacks or blacker background has nothing to do with a lowered noise floor. If anything such effects have to do with a raised noise floor.

But what have we accomplished musically?
Musically, everything one could hope for when the noise floor is legitimately or genuinely lowered. In such a case, there the sonic benefits are universal, across the entire frequency spectrum, and without any direct negatives.

Is a cleaner, noise-scrubbed, more sterile signal consonant with reproducing the sounds of the music we hear in the concert hall or in the jazz club?
Yes. For several reasons. Primarily because IMO the volumes of ambient info we and recording mics hear at a live performance is the lowest of low-level info. And when faced against any noise floor whatsoever, the first thing to become inaudible is the lowest of the low-level detail aka the volumes of ambient info embedded in a vast majority of recordings.

Is any of the naturalness or the richness or the organic-ness of live music removed, or is any of the visceral, emotional content of the music lost, even as "blacker" backgrounds and quieter systems are gained?
Not when a playback system's noise floor is genuinely lowered. In fact, everything becomes more natural, more rich, more organic, more visceral, more emotional, more engaging, more of everything. IOW, you hear greater percentages of the entire music info read from a given recording whenever a noise floor is genuinely lowered.

BTW, as discussed elsewhere, backgrounds become less black or less quiet because with more audible music info, you begin to hear more and more of the ambient info of music decaying and reverberating throughout the recording hall - often times long after the initial attack of a music note. Hence, blacker backgrounds has zero to do with a playback system's genuinely lowered noise floor. If one is genuinely hearing blacker backgrounds, their system's noise floor is going in the wrong direction.
 
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stehno

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There is definitely a tipping point when lowering the noise floor can lose that ‘audiophile umami’ causing things to sound overdamped and uninvolving. Quite a subjective area though, which will vary between systems and individuals however ime parallel devices do less damage than those in series, directly in the signal path. My bete noir appears to be transformer coupling, as Bill has alluded to with xlr to rca converters.

There ought never be a tipping point where the sound stops improving and suddenly takes a dive or becomes less musical when the noise floor is genuinely lowered "too much". It's illogical and should be impossible.

But what can happen is that a newly installed component could introduce less distortions of one type (lowering the noise floor) while also introduce new distortions of another type (raising the noise floor). For example. Some Class D amps can be rather musical but their high-speed switching modules will generate a bi-directional digital-like noise that is shared between the 2-channels via the AC. Moreover, because this Class D noise is bi-directional (just like digital noise) this noise/distortion will go back into the wall and some say all the way back to the service panel and then impact other components with this same bi-directional digital-like noise.

I love some Class D amps but for this bi-directional digital-like noise inherent in perhaps all Class D amps I would never purchase a stereo Class D amp but rather I would only purchase monoblock Class D amps. Additionally I would only purchase monoblock Class D amps if I were able to use dedicated bi-directional filering line conditioners. Which happens to be my current config.
 

Ron Resnick

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Perhaps "noise floor" needs to be more clearly defined somewhere. But you did specify a playback system's noise floor. so we can exclude noisy children, barking dogs, etc which some may also label as an environemental noise floor but has zero to do with a playback system's noise floor. IMO, a given playback system's noise floor is the cumulative total of all audible and inaudible distortions that impact the input signal as it travels throughout the playback system's signal path.

The measure of a noise floor determines what percentage of the music info read and processed will remain audible (above the noise floor) at the speaker as well as determine the percentage of the music info read and processed will remain inaudible (below the noise floor) at the speaker. If and it is so, that percentages of music info read and processed remains below the noise floor and rendered inaudible at the speaker, that should imply that the percentage of music info remaining audible (above the noise floor) at the speaker will sound corrupted or distorted because percentages of that music info cannot be heard.

Given your implication above, some-to-many already realize that the AC coming in from the street is dirty, noisy, unclean, etc, and negatively impacts a playback presentation, I think it safe to say that a playback system's noise floor includes all distortions starting at the electrical service panel and ends at the speaker drivers. Yes, one could say the noise floor starts at the electrical power plant but since that's outside our scope, the service panel is as good a place as any to start with purifying the noisy AC and hence, begin lowering the playback system's noise floor.


As discussed in another thread, (started by me I think) a blacker blacks or blacker background has nothing to do with a lowered noise floor. If anything such effects have to do with a raised noise floor.


Musically, everything one could hope for when the noise floor is legitimately or genuinely lowered. In such a case, there the sonic benefits are universal, across the entire frequency spectrum, and without any direct negatives.


Yes. For several reasons. Primarily because IMO the volumes of ambient info we and recording mics hear at a live performance is the lowest of low-level info. And when faced against any noise floor whatsoever, the first thing to become inaudible is the lowest of the low-level detail aka the volumes of ambient info embedded in a vast majority of recordings.


Not when a playback system's noise floor is genuinely lowered. In fact, everything becomes more natural, more rich, more organic, more visceral, more emotional, more engaging, more of everything. IOW, you hear greater percentages of the entire music info read from a given recording whenever a noise floor is genuinely lowered.

BTW, as discussed elsewhere, backgrounds become less black or less quiet because with more audible music info, you begin to hear more and more of the ambient info of music decaying and reverberating throughout the recording hall - often times long after the initial attack of a music note. Hence, blacker backgrounds has zero to do with a playback system's genuinely lowered noise floor. If one is genuinely hearing blacker backgrounds, their system's noise floor is going in the wrong direction.

I think I agree with your definitional and substantive points.

I don't consider a "blacker background" to be a desirable objective per se. (What public music venue sounds like an anechoic chamber?) Of course less surface noise from a record is invariably a good thing.

But a blacker background by itself does not allow us to achieve a more natural sound; it is a lower noise floor that allows previously obscured low-level information to become audible. By lowering the noise floor previously unintelligible signals become audible and intelligible.
 

stehno

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I think I agree with your definitional and substantive points.

I don't consider a "blacker background" to be a desirable objective per se. (What public music venue sounds like an anechoic chamber?) Of course less surface noise from a record is invariably a good thing.
Understood, Ron. But there are some that will parrot the "blacker blacks" thing as a badge of honor with every "improvement" they hear.

But a blacker background by itself does not allow us to achieve a more natural sound;
I'm not so sure about this statement, Ron. As I think about it, I can't imagine anything else that genuinely (I'm using this word alot I know) lowers a playback system's noise floor, from where else might you acheive a more natural sound than hearing more of what is embedded in a given recording?

Ok, there's the speaker placement thing for musical bass and subwoofer tuning which are large contributors to a more natural sound as well. But this region is almost a completely separate part of a system's overall playback presentation. But I suspect it's an almost entirely different and almost unrelated noise floor because now we're talking mechanical in nature verses electrical which I suspect have an intersection at some point as well as similar behaviors. For example. When full-range speakers and/or subwoofers are not positioned and/or tuned optimally, there is much potential bass info that goes unheard. I mean large percentages of bass that remain inaudible. But as days, weeks, months, and years go by and better position and/or tuning, the greater the percentage of bass that become more audible and more musical. Of course then there's not too dissimilar activities going on with the mids and highs because when the bass becomes more tuneful the entire the mids/highs cease being overly bright/beaming and the playback presentation becomes more balanced. So I guess there are numerous noise floors as until now I was only thinking one possibily 2. Now it seems there maybe 4 or more noise floor sectors within the playback vineyard.

Anyway, aside from that I can't think of any other method or strategy one might pursue to achieve a more natural sound than making audible volumes of music info on the recording that previously was inaudible. It's surely not the room. :)

it is a lower noise floor that allows previously obscured low-level information to become audible. By lowering the noise floor previously unintelligible signals become audible and intelligible.

Indeed and well said.
 
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tima

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the Upper Midwest
My understanding has typical power off the grid, off the street, as relatively clean with the larger share of 'noise' coming from household and the audio components themselves. Of course there are exceptions.

If noise is not signal, my sense is that efforts to filter out one from the other have varying degrees of success. They both have frequencies but the filters don't always know one from the other though our ears and body can.
 

Joe Whip

Well-Known Member
Feb 8, 2014
1,739
562
405
Wayne, PA
When I think of the term blacker background, I think of being able to hear more of the room where the recording is made, subtle things, like a foot pedal a piano, the sound of people rustling in their seats, conversations, the snapping of fingers, etc, a lot of that stuff is captured on the recording and us audible as electric noise is removed.
 

Alrainbow

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2013
3,249
1,422
450
I began with my room , got it down to 19db ambient noise floor without it being dead .. pointless reducing the system noise floor without being able to hear it ...
What is your titinus DB rating hahahaha. love the terms we use in audio some make me Hungry
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
10,560
1,787
1,850
Metro DC
If no wanted musical signal is being applied there should be no sound reproduced. I suppose one could eliminate all background noise in a recording studio. Not so easy in live music. In a good concert hall I can actually hear a musician shift there seating position. Binaural recordings due an excellent job of of sniffing out background noise. All this comes form the recording or the room.
No noise should be produced by the equipment. No signal. No output. Total silence however is kind of spooky.
 

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