The best Dipoles, Dipoles that can do bass?

Zero000

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2014
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Irrespective of whether the Pnoe can do bass or not, some of the music selections definitely look to warrant further investigation.

I will say once more, that the contrast between bass via the Pnoe and the Bohne system was massive in the bass region.

The Pnoe sounds nice with excellent mid/treble resolution, the Bohne does bass and deep bass with impact, genuine extension and true balls. Heard within a few minutes of each other on the same track. Genuine head reset encountered in the Bohne room WRT bass relative to the Pnoe.
 

infinitely baffled

VIP/Donor
Jul 2, 2015
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Yes, the Pnoes cannot go lower than 25-27 Hz or so, that is without some help from a DSP system or sub. But its magic, and I mean it, is in the texture of the sound, voices etc. and the harmonics of the instruments. Many people, including us, prefer to have such a system compared to an 'standard' sounding setup which goes down to 16 Hz. We really doubt that such a system can deliver trully clean and fast bass, the 'leatherness' of the drums, the 'woodness' of the violin etc. like the Pnoes. And of course the possibility to drive the speakers with a minimalist super-transparent amp like a 2-stage 300B or hybrid, is very limited. In many people's experience the first watts are the best..., I propose you listen to the Pnoes, you might be surprised. Totally pure signal path, no crossover, one driver and no box. With the right cables it really is an experience which one does not forget.

Gutted.

Let me congratulate you on what, by all accounts, is a remarkable speaker.
Unfortunately not designed with folk like me in mind.
I wish you success
 

infinitely baffled

VIP/Donor
Jul 2, 2015
1,259
387
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Scotland
Irrespective of whether the Pnoe can do bass or not, some of the music selections definitely look to warrant further investigation.

I will say once more, that the contrast between bass via the Pnoe and the Bohne system was massive in the bass region.

The Pnoe sounds nice with excellent mid/treble resolution, the Bohne does bass and deep bass with impact, genuine extension and true balls. Heard within a few minutes of each other on the same track. Genuine head reset encountered in the Bohne room WRT bass relative to the Pnoe.

I would say that we're on the same wavelength, user211
 

Arcadian

New Member
Apr 28, 2018
10
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0
Dear Arcadian,

Please could you outline the specific details of the 2018 Pnoe revision - I am most interested in understanding the technical detail of this new solution you described in relation to “mid and high frequency isolation from the bass...”

What does the new “copper baffle” do also? Any other revisions that lead to the 2018 superiority?

Thanks.

The Pnoe has been designed differently to other horns. From its conception it uses filtering of the high and mid frequencies in order to eliminate coloration in the bass horn, using a special material. The new model applies this principle in a much more advanced way and the results are immediately audible.
The baffle is the piece holding the driver. The new baffle material is copper alloy and sounds really nice, very clear and precise.
 

Arcadian

New Member
Apr 28, 2018
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I would say that we're on the same wavelength, user211

Looking at the Bohne system I must note that it is fundamentally the complete opposite of the Pnoe. We re talking a completely different philosophy, which makes comparing them like comparing apples to oranges. They are both speaker system of course, but on the one hand the Bohne is a technically very advanced active, multi way, dsp supported box, which aims to reproduce full scale 'bit perfect' sound, and on the other hand an ultra simplistic, ultra pure signal pathway, single driver speaker which aims to be as transparent as possible in reproducing the texture and dynamics of instruments and voices using electronics of the same philosophy.
Our team listens to systems like the Bohne too, and we like them very much. But we have never experienced by such systems the ambiance that the Pnoes produce due to their unmatched naturalness and speed. The bass of the Pnoe is not a box bass. It is much faster than a box bass and this shows immediately in the rendering of the double bass for example, or other harmonically rich instruments. It all depends on the priorities of the listener of course, and, if I may add, over the long term...
 

infinitely baffled

VIP/Donor
Jul 2, 2015
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All of the Pnoe's characteristics you describe are immensely appealing to me....but not at the price of ultimate bass extension.
Unfortunately we are talking different languages.
Any familiarity with my chosen material and you would understand that lopping off the most important frequencies is not a serious attempt to cater for anyone who appreciates bass driven dance music
That said there's obviously a market for speakers designed for rock pop and classical only. But i would suggest it isnt an expanding one.
Should you ever release a complementary subwoofer or larger horn designed to go sub 18hz i would beat a path to your door...
 

zerostargeneral

Well-Known Member
Apr 14, 2018
716
828
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Sorry that's completely gone over my head.
What do you mean?

I mean that you have passed on a speaker that can do more than you realise.

No other poster here understands what the BD4 or BD5 achieve.I have blown out my windows more than once.

700 continuous watts at 118 DB sensitivity, you would need 20,000 watts through Velodyne to match the SPL.

No Apogee comes close, anyone owning them is mired in the past drunk on fumes, if they call that top end sound.

I have tried a dozen or so driver alternatives and fried them all with only 50 watts.

These are not V...tiv or L...her, they take punishment like 18" scoops, massive excursion(24mm) and gigantic velocity.

Your loss.

Kind regards,G.
 

infinitely baffled

VIP/Donor
Jul 2, 2015
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Scotland
I can achieve all the spl i need, and more, with my current system.

Sacrificing LF extension for higher spl would be pointless

My intention is to keep what i have and add space, ambience, three dimensionality....but not at the expense of sub bass
 
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zerostargeneral

Well-Known Member
Apr 14, 2018
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A rumbling resonating box is not a bass transducer, it is distortion box of junk.

Please name me one driver with an fe as low as 18hz?

I did Sunrise with nothing under 28hz,go figure.

Kind regards,G.
 

zerostargeneral

Well-Known Member
Apr 14, 2018
716
828
203
Ok, I hear what you are saying.However I am not sure you understand me.I see subs as domestic toys.Matching them to anything is a foolish errand.I have never heard a speaker that can create such pressure.

BTW, never seen JL,Vdyne or similar at a rave.

Kind regards,G.
 

Audiophile Bill

Well-Known Member
Mar 23, 2015
4,293
4,093
675
The Pnoe has been designed differently to other horns. From its conception it uses filtering of the high and mid frequencies in order to eliminate coloration in the bass horn, using a special material. The new model applies this principle in a much more advanced way and the results are immediately audible.
The baffle is the piece holding the driver. The new baffle material is copper alloy and sounds really nice, very clear and precise.

Hi Arcadian,

Thanks for coming back to me. Just so I understand, you are saying that the rear wave (with mid/high frequency content as well as bass content) is filtered by material inside the Pnoe cabinet such that only bass comes through the horn aperture?
 

Arcadian

New Member
Apr 28, 2018
10
0
0
All of the Pnoe's characteristics you describe are immensely appealing to me....but not at the price of ultimate bass extension.
Unfortunately we are talking different languages.
Any familiarity with my chosen material and you would understand that lopping off the most important frequencies is not a serious attempt to cater for anyone who appreciates bass driven dance music
That said there's obviously a market for speakers designed for rock pop and classical only. But i would suggest it isnt an expanding one.
Should you ever release a complementary subwoofer or larger horn designed to go sub 18hz i would beat a path to your door...

Well, I understand and respect very well your taste and I would also agree that, by what you say, that bass impact and balls are the most important part of music for you, your ideal speaker is definitely not the Pnoe.
In our experience the market for more connection with natural sound is surely expanding, within a sea of digital correction and 'linearisation' technologies.
And most probably we are not going to propose a sub as it will surely take away part of the magic by adding boxy harmonics.
I should add that we are not audio businessmen who do market research anyway, we are lifelong lovers of music and its reproduction.
May I ask, for which music do you think the Pnoe is certainly unsuitable? Could you provide some examples?
 

Arcadian

New Member
Apr 28, 2018
10
0
0
Hi Arcadian,

Thanks for coming back to me. Just so I understand, you are saying that the rear wave (with mid/high frequency content as well as bass content) is filtered by material inside the Pnoe cabinet such that only bass comes through the horn aperture?

Yes, and this works with the design of the horn
 

Arcadian

New Member
Apr 28, 2018
10
0
0
Irrespective of whether the Pnoe can do bass or not, some of the music selections definitely look to warrant further investigation.

I will say once more, that the contrast between bass via the Pnoe and the Bohne system was massive in the bass region.

The Pnoe sounds nice with excellent mid/treble resolution, the Bohne does bass and deep bass with impact, genuine extension and true balls. Heard within a few minutes of each other on the same track. Genuine head reset encountered in the Bohne room WRT bass relative to the Pnoe.

Are you referring to the Munich show rooms? The setup was awful there, the bass was way worse than it should, we attest to that. With a proper setup the bass becomes fulfilling and even excessive at times (yes, this has happened). The Pnoe can make use of the back and side walls to strengthen the bass in a very controllable way and without compromising speed.
 

infinitely baffled

VIP/Donor
Jul 2, 2015
1,259
387
340
Scotland
Well, I understand and respect very well your taste and I would also agree that, by what you say, that bass impact and balls are the most important part of music for you, your ideal speaker is definitely not the Pnoe.
In our experience the market for more connection with natural sound is surely expanding, within a sea of digital correction and 'linearisation' technologies.
And most probably we are not going to propose a sub as it will surely take away part of the magic by adding boxy harmonics.
I should add that we are not audio businessmen who do market research anyway, we are lifelong lovers of music and its reproduction.
May I ask, for which music do you think the Pnoe is certainly unsuitable? Could you provide some examples?





 

infinitely baffled

VIP/Donor
Jul 2, 2015
1,259
387
340
Scotland
:D
 

infinitely baffled

VIP/Donor
Jul 2, 2015
1,259
387
340
Scotland
Ok, I hear what you are saying.However I am not sure you understand me.I see subs as domestic toys.Matching them to anything is a foolish errand.I have never heard a speaker that can create such pressure.

BTW, never seen JL,Vdyne or similar at a rave.

Kind regards,G.

I have no interest in changing the way you choose to see subs. That is your prerogative
The Velodynes are +/-3db @14.4hz per sub. A 14hz tone is reproduced as clear as the nose on your face in my room.
As domestic subwoofers they would have no place at a rave, for that scenario i would use Danley Labhorns or Big Berthas (eaw bh883). Horses for courses

https://www.stereophile.com/content/velodyne-digital-drive-plus-18-subwoofer-specifications
 

infinitely baffled

VIP/Donor
Jul 2, 2015
1,259
387
340
Scotland
Well, I understand and respect very well your taste and I would also agree that, by what you say, that bass impact and balls are the most important part of music for you, your ideal speaker is definitely not the Pnoe.
In our experience the market for more connection with natural sound is surely expanding, within a sea of digital correction and 'linearisation' technologies.
And most probably we are not going to propose a sub as it will surely take away part of the magic by adding boxy harmonics.
I should add that we are not audio businessmen who do market research anyway, we are lifelong lovers of music and its reproduction.
May I ask, for which music do you think the Pnoe is certainly unsuitable? Could you provide some examples?

My apologies for the tone of my post to you. I've thought about it and reflected on the emotions behind it.
Firstly i had already formed some emotional attschment to the idea of the Pnoe. Of having them in my sanctum, and both the visual and audio changes they would bring. They fit my idea of beauty, and they fit the direction i would like to take my system in wrt amplification.
I could easily accept that they might not be full enough in the sub bass region for my taste, as i already supplement my main speakers with subwoofers. But learning that they basically exclude such assistance has been difficult. Its like being excluded from a club and told, no, we dont cater to your requirements, nor do we permit you to assist yourself. So it was this, coming after the unexpectedly belligerent turn the thread took today that lies behind my emotional response.
I don't doubt that you are music loving perfectionists rather than businessman, and there is no malice intended in my heartfelt plea to consider that the younger generation listen to a lot more hip hop and electronica, and not to ignore this market

I respect your views on boxed subwoofers, may i ask your views on infinitely baffled subwoofers?
I went as far as doing the necessary structural work above my listening room, adding steel beams to support two heavy IB subs, before ultimately going in a different direction. But the reputation is of a kind of bass completey removed from what conventional subwoofers can achieve
 

Joe Cohen

Industry Expert
Jun 10, 2012
247
275
968
My apologies for the tone of my post to you. I've thought about it and reflected on the emotions behind it.
Firstly i had already formed some emotional attschment to the idea of the Pnoe. Of having them in my sanctum, and both the visual and audio changes they would bring. They fit my idea of beauty, and they fit the direction i would like to take my system in wrt amplification.
I could easily accept that they might not be full enough in the sub bass region for my taste, as i already supplement my main speakers with subwoofers. But learning that they basically exclude such assistance has been difficult. Its like being excluded from a club and told, no, we dont cater to your requirements, nor do we permit you to assist yourself. So it was this, coming after the unexpectedly belligerent turn the thread took today that lies behind my emotional response.
I don't doubt that you are music loving perfectionists rather than businessman, and there is no malice intended in my heartfelt plea to consider that the younger generation listen to a lot more hip hop and electronica, and not to ignore this market

I respect your views on boxed subwoofers, may i ask your views on infinitely baffled subwoofers?
I went as far as doing the necessary structural work above my listening room, adding steel beams to support two heavy IB subs, before ultimately going in a different direction. But the reputation is of a kind of bass completey removed from what conventional subwoofers can achieve

With respect, it is not a question of boxed or open baffle subwoofers, but of proper implementation. “Linearization” is a “loaded” term. In this case it would seem to imply some damage done to the signal, when in fact, lacking proper calibration, there is no way to properly implement full scale bass in a room. The problem is that few understand how to achieve proper calibration. It is an art as well as a science.
 

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