Modifications to Maximize Sound Quality of Studer A820 for Repro Only

Ron Resnick

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Please propose modifications to a Studer A820 to maximize sound quality for repro only use.

I will start the list:

— Remove record head and re-locate playback head to record head position

— Replace playback head with a roller

— Remove internal stock audio electronics cards

— Implement some direct head out solution
 

microstrip

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Please propose modifications to a Studer A820 to maximize sound quality for repro only use.

I will start the list:

— Remove record head and re-locate playback head to record head position

— Replace playback head with a roller

— Remove internal stock audio electronics cards

— Implement some direct head out solution

The objective of the two first points is reducing scrape flutter - unless it is carried by someone being able to measure it, improperly adding rollers can even increase it. Are you relying on ATAE for these modifications?
 

Ron Resnick

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Right now I am just trying to develop a comprehensive “wish list” of possible modifications.
 

dminches

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Wire out the head block to a Doshi Tape Pre. That is as good as it is going to get.
 

Ron Resnick

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Have you compared directly A/B on the same reproducer the Doshi versus the Bottlehead and the King Cello and the ML-5?
 

dminches

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Have you compared directly A/B on the same reproducer the Doshi versus the Bottlehead and the King Cello and the ML-5?

Ron, I have not. I know some have. We had a RTR listening session here last weekend but only listened to the Doshi.

I know someone compared the stock ATR-102 to the King Cello and referred the ATR-102 but that’s just one data point.

Nick’s tape pre is really something special. I encourage you to try to demo one.
 

microstrip

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Ron, I have not. I know some have. We had a RTR listening session here last weekend but only listened to the Doshi.

I know someone compared the stock ATR-102 to the King Cello and referred the ATR-102 but that’s just one data point.

Nick’s tape pre is really something special. I encourage you to try to demo one.

Nick preamplifer has an input IC. It would be great if could develop an head amplifying module to be placed inside the headblock!
 

Tango

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You are very lucky to be in a country where there are many tape technicians around to think of the four options you listed. Your Studer is already a very sophisticated machine. It’s manual is three inches thick. To be honest, one time I could not even find where to took in the manual when a signal light was blinking :eek:. I feel like driving a formula one car. When something happens it is totally out of my hand and had to hopelessly depend on a very scarce technician who really knows what he is doing. Your fourth option is the most sensible approach imo. You don’t even have to remove stock cards and can revert it back to original easily when you want. You listened to Mike’s King Cello already. Ed Pong once recommended me Decware which suppose to be excellent with good service from the designer. Go listen to others. And Just pick the head pre you like and make sure the designer is willing to spend time optimizing it for you.

Kind regards,
Tang
 

Ron Resnick

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Ron, I have not. . . .

Thank you for your honesty.

That is why I cringed when you wrote: "That is as good as it is going to get," because if one has not compared then one cannot have even a personal opinion sufficient to support the posted assertion.
 

Ron Resnick

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dminches

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Thank you for your honesty.

That is why I cringed when you wrote: "That is as good as it is going to get," because if one has not compared then one cannot have even a personal opinion sufficient to support the posted assertion.

One can have an opinion even if it isn’t based on personal experience. Ask Bruce. He may have listened to other tape pres.
 

Ron Resnick

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Bruce B. loves his Doshi tape preamplifier. Myles loves his. Tang loves his. Steve loves his. I think everyone who has one loves it.

But that still does not mean one logically can believe it to be the "best" unless one has compared it to the other leading contenders -- that is the only (and narrow) point I am making.

I would like to find a way to put a discrete component initial gain stage amplifier in the Studer head block, and then bypass the op-amp gain stage in the Doshi. So the first gain stage would be discrete components going to Nick's undoubtedly amazing tube gain stages.

Any ideas on how to accomplish that? Anyone?

Only Fred Thal knows how to build a discrete component initial gain stage in the Studer head block.
 

Ron Resnick

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. . .

I am intrigued by placing the first gain stage in the head block, as Fred Thal has suggested. That is why I started this thread: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...-Only-Solution-for-External-Tape-Repro-Preamp

I am thinking about asking Fred to find a NOS Studer A820 head block and build an SHRO head block and stuff in a discrete component initial gain stage. A 1 meter or 1.5 meter or 2 meter interconnect cable would be hard-wired to the output of the gain stage and terminated in XLR plugs. The XLR plugs would be plugged into the input of an all-tube tape repro amplifier.

This would satisfy Fred and the pro audio people who cannot stand the idea of running the tiny playback head signal into a meter or two of wire* on the way to the external repro amplifier, and it would satisfy us audiophiles (i) by facilitating the use of an external repro amplifier, (ii) without using an IC anywhere in the signal path.

What do you think of this idea?

* This concern makes sense to me, by the way.
 

stellavox

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Thanks for asking the questions Ron.

I’m going to break my response into 3 categories: balanced vs unbalanced - object to follow; cable length (to which I will add “terminations”) and head amplification, with your referencing the fixed gain playback head preamp in the Studer A8XX recorder headblocks.

Balanced vs unbalanced first. Let me start by stating what we already know; a tape head is an inherently balanced device – just like a phono cartridge. What this means is that the two wires leaving each coil inside both devices are both “above ground”, with a potential difference across and opposing polarity between each other. Here, I’m going to leave the tape world for now and concentrate on the phono/LP world. I can do this because a typical PB head is electrically similar to a MM cartridge. Once the signal from a phono cartridge leaves its “balanced world”, things get interesting. You know that at the end of the shielded cable coming from 99+% of all turntable/tonearms (going to use TT from now on) is an RCA with a hot and ground. The ground becomes a common point (let’s call it signal ground) in the amplification chain and in most cases follows through all the way to the speaker’s minus terminal. So the balanced output from the cartridge has been unbalanced – by which I mean that one side is now referenced somehow to signal ground. This is done either right at the wires connecting to the cartridge or where those fine wires connect to the interconnects terminating in the RCA’s on the other end.

In a TRULY balanced world, what I will call the opposing signals emerging from the cartridge would be amplified / attenuated / equalized SEPARATELY all the way through to the speaker – with the speaker also operating in a BALANCED way. This NEVER happens. Somewhere along the line a balanced to unbalanced “conversion” is made. Name a TT that outputs a balanced signal and a preamp that accepts its balanced LOW-level signal. I know that they have been made in the past though I’m not aware of any now. What is out there are many (certainly most hi-end) preamps that may have balanced HIGH-level balanced inputs and outputs, and amps with balanced inputs. And the outputs from all the amps I’m aware of are UNBALANCED. In fact most speakers are unbalanced with one side of the crossover network for each driver attached to a common point (the negative terminal). Heck, a loudspeaker driver is an inherently balanced device. If we were REALLY TRUE TO THE BALANCED CAUSE, each loudspeaker driver would have a balanced crossover (I believe the term for these are “series” vs “parallel” crossover networks).

Now, assuming that you do have a preamp that offers a balanced low-level input and output, how does it accomplish this? The most complex method is to have FULLY BALANCED electronic amplification, which means you have two separate amplification paths for the plus and minus signals for each channel (a total of four parallel paths for stereo). This has been done by a few manufacturers although the equalization network have to be more complicated and controlling the volume more tricky - and twice as expensive? Most of the manufacturers take what I will call the “PSEUDO-BALANCED “approach whereby the preamp accepts a balanced signal and IMMEDIATELY un-balances it either through the use of an input transformer or electronically using a differential amplifier. Downstream, the majority of the amplification / equalization / attenuation is unbalanced; and then at the output, a device such as an output transformer or an electronic phase inverter “recreates” a balanced signal.

Notice that I’m not going to make any sonic claims for either (un)balanced approach. I’m simply pointing out how it’s done and emphasizing that it has never been fully implemented IMO.

Back to the tape world and commercial recorders: I’ve seen VERY few playback preamp circuits that actually accept a balanced input from the PB head. The MCI’s and later Lyrec Frieda’s actually have electronic differential input amplification. One version of the Studer A80 (with a really low inductance PB head) and the Ampex MR-70 used an input transformer on the PB card – not sure of the ATR. The playback cards of most A80’s have unbalanced inputs and even though they use a two-conductor shielded cable from the PB head, one conductor (common) is grounded on the playback card. The fixed gain preamp in the A810/2 (and I assume the other A8XXX models) have unbalanced gain, with what I’ll call the common wire from the head “floating” in the headblock amp but grounded on the repro card. In ALL cases these preamps use UNBALANCED amplification / equalization. Most use an output transformer to derive their balanced output signal. There may be a model that uses an output electronic phase inverter but I can’t remember.

PART 2 – cable length. Yes, we are talking a “tiny playback head signal (running into) a meter or two of wire” before entering the preamp. Again, let’s compare this situation to the TT / LP / phono world. Think of the TOTAL cable distance and number of interconnections in an LP setup between the phono cartridge, tonearm and the RCA’s on the end of the cable that plugs into your preamp. You probably have at least a meter of total length, at least two different types of wire/cables and maybe two interconnections (clips on the cartridge, connector on the bottom of the tonearm) plus the eutectic solder joints. Heck there is probably 12-18 inches of tiny wire inside the tone arm alone. AND, consider what’s going on inside your preamp before the signal gets to the first amplifying tube or transistor – additional wire and/or PC board trace(s), cartridge loading components along with how those all are wired and switched.

No one in the TT world seems to complain about all this cable / interconnection? So in our tape world why not compare this to a meter or so of good quality, single conductor, shielded cable soldered directly to the tape head terminals. Problem? Haven’t had or heard of one yet with my outboard pre’s.

PART 3 – Head amp. Let me return to my TT analogy. How many folks are you aware of that have put some kind of amplifying stage closer to the cartridge like inside the turntable base or somewhere in the tonearm?? I’m not saying that it might not be a good idea but nobody in that world is doing it. Studer incorporated it into their A8XXX series for some good reason – I’d opine to possibly “offload” the work (and signal levels) that their reproduce card has to do. However, I’m not aware of any other manufacturer that did this. Again, it might be a good idea BUT there is barely enough room for an IC, and no to room do it discretely. And if you have to, make sure it's fed with additional low-noise power regulation.

Thank you for the opportunity to respond.

Charles

Maybe more later on tube/solidstate tape preamplification
 
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andromedaaudio

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Interesting stellavox, as you seem to know a lot about tapemachines.
Do you think There is any further progress possible on the tape and tapedeck front , or is it as chewed out as digital?
 
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stellavox

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Hey Andromeda (name please),

Thanks for the reply. I've been trying to coax the best sound out of the tape machines I could afford for MANY years now.

I wouldn't begin to use the word "chewed out" for tape. You know that what is available now is dammed good (Don't you agree Mike L?). Can it be better? Maybe but only marginally. We have machines that handle (protect) the tape very nicely, heads that appear to "eek out" whatever the magnetic particles can tell us. And some dammed good (There I go again) electronics to process those the "tiny electrical signals". AND we have some great (tho expensive) source material.

From day one it was a rich man's hobby.

There was a discussion years back here in the annals about NEW tape machines, and musing about their potential benefits. I was skeptical then and still am that what we have can be "beaten". Now a few challengers may be arriving but I still think we're getting close to (asymptotically approaching) what the medium can offer. But then many are NEVER SATISFIED with the "old" -new MUST come and BE BETTER than what we currently have - if for no other reason than it's new.

And then there is, as my girlfriend calls it - the ever present, Dick-Measuring-Contest "effect".

I'm just trying to sit back and enjoy what I have.

"Keep your heads clean and your tails out"

Charles
 

Bruce B

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Bruce B. loves his Doshi tape preamplifier. Myles loves his. Tang loves his. Steve loves his. I think everyone who has one loves it.

But that still does not mean one logically can believe it to be the "best" unless one has compared it to the other leading contenders -- that is the only (and narrow) point I am making.

But I have had the DeHavilland 222, King/Cello, Aria, Bottlehead and Doshi in here to compare. For me, hands down, Doshi is the best!

I have Nick's very first 2 units he ever built and they have been upgraded to the latest/greatest. I have also added 2 bal. outputs with one transformer balanced and the other deferentially balanced. If I could find better, I certainly have the means to. I haven't found anything!
 

spiritofmusic

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Charles, I nearly NEARLY took the plunge and went tape. I loved the look of that portable Stellavox I think we talked about 2-2.5 years ago.

But I could never justify the move, purely based on price of tapes alone.

However I always read the tape threads and think “what might have been?...”

I run two old pieces of complex tech, a 1968 Citroën DS21 and a 1998 Barco crt pj, and I was trying to square my head with that third old complex tech...but never managed to.
 

microstrip

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I am thinking about asking Fred to find a NOS Studer A820 head block and build an SHRO head block and stuff in a discrete component initial gain stage. A 1 meter or 1.5 meter or 2 meter interconnect cable would be hard-wired to the output of the gain stage and terminated in XLR plugs. The XLR plugs would be plugged into the input of an all-tube tape repro amplifier.

This would satisfy Fred and the pro audio people who cannot stand the idea of running the tiny playback head signal into a meter or two of wire* on the way to the external repro amplifier, and it would satisfy us audiophiles (i) by facilitating the use of an external repro amplifier, (ii) without using an IC anywhere in the signal path.

What do you think of this idea?

* This concern makes sense to me, by the way.

Do you think that Fred Thal would build and sell parts for machines that have not been completely refurbished and checked by ATAE?

IMHO designing such amplifier in a way it would please him and you would be a very expensive project.
 

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