Tangential Tone Arms, whats the issue?

Tango

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Mar 12, 2017
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Dear XV,

I once asked a famous tonearm designer why he makes a 12” the answer was the is a some tt cannot be used with shorter arm and there is a market for it. Not putting it exactly like what I wrote but that was the message.
Kuzma tangential or pivot bearing? Probably the same reason in my opinion. No new product while competitors keep introducing new things just gonna make your sales go down. Fact of business.

Kind regards,
Tang
 

XV-1

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
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Hi Tang

If there is a market for it - they will build it :) many audiophiles are fickle and need a regular new hit of a new product, as newest is always best - right :cool:. myself included.

no doubt Kuzma makes more high end pivoted tonearms as they sell more, most audiophiles will dismiss the linear tracking as too much hassle despite potentially sounding better.
 
Jan 18, 2012
2,320
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Drobak Norway
I´ve had my Airtangent reference since 1996 and will never look back
Two of my friends bought Bergmanns recently and finally they understand what I´ve been ranting about for 22 years......totally "freefloating" relaxed reproduction
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
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Have the Trans Fi Audio Terminator air bearing linear tracker.
At £800, a veritable giant killer in the analog world.
With a 5.5” armwand, twin unipivot bearing and low pressure pump (2-3 psi versus the 50+ psi one finds on Airline and Airtangent), it’s an amazing piece of kit for the money.
I’m achieving the fastest, cleanest and quickest bass I’ve heard at home, zero overhang, but excellent harmonic development.
I can’t ever imagine swapping out.
 

XV-1

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
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Great to see some audiophiles here bucking the trend and going tangential - bravo

Marc, One day I will try the Trans-Fi. funny how many are used on Lenco's thou.
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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XV, Vic developed the arm on the old L70, so it makes some sense.

They’re in the same ball park price/performance value too.

Vic’s Salvation direct rim drive tt is a direct evolution of the Lenco, w the Terminator arm, that’s my analog front end for life.
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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I’m loving it, Karel .
 

shakti

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May 9, 2015
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During the High End Fair in Munich, Rainer Horstmann from Dereneville will present again his tangential tonearmDTT 01, which looks like real German engineering:

http://www.avdesignhaus.de/AnalogLaufwerkbau-Node_15750.html


I personally love the AirTangent Reference Titan limited Edition tonearm, which was described here.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...hrough-Airtangent-Reference-sn35-100-pictures

I do own the number 34/100 of the above described arm, still as new and unused in the original alubox, as I never had a turntable to fit it in the way I would like it.

May be I should consider to sell it, after all these years :)

Or I should by the "best" turntable for this great arm ;-)
 

gshelley

Member Sponsor
Jan 10, 2011
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I personally remain interested in hearing the Schroder LT.[/QUOTE]

Schroeder LT is a very good arm. Was surprised by the level of improvement in same system/cart over a Reed 3P arm. One of those nice surprise type experiences.
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
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So Caesar, I think you’d like my system.

You’ve shown attraction to two ideas, high efficiency spkrs and tangential tonearms.

I run both.

Are you gonna to make the trip to visit me?

And hear for yourself.
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
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XV, you may need to hurry up re trying the Terminator.

Vic has just wound up production, after a decade, and 250+ arms sold.
 

XV-1

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May 24, 2010
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spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
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XV, we all have to retire some day.

Vic had already wound down from his main job, it was always a matter of time when he’d quit the audio cottage industry.
 

XV-1

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
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XV, we all have to retire some day.

Vic had already wound down from his main job, it was always a matter of time when he’d quit the audio cottage industry.

I am not buying any product without any support - sorry Marc. that is bad news for everyone who has bought his tonearms.
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
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I get that XV.

However I live less than 50 miles from him and in effect have unlimited service warranty, he has spare parts galore to look after the tt and arm ongoing.

I wouldn’t expect anyone to buy, and now you can only get s/h, or until his remaining new inventory disappears.

However, his gear is trouble free, in 5 years I’ve not had to once service the arm or tt other than bearing oil top-up.

And for those who have always been intrigued by his arm especially, one should at least consider buying Terminator s/h and see/hear what the fuss is all about.

Put it this way XV, I spent £2400 on Day One in 2013 for tt and arm. I’ve since spent 3x that sum additionally on tricking the rig out w magnetic bearing and feet, improved arm mount and unipivot points, beefed up bespoke tt motor psu, and Stacore Advanced isolation.

And a similar upstick on my Soundsmith Straingauge cart, again with overspecced psu.

It’s an analog front end I really feel competes with the big boys.
 

carolus

Well-Known Member
Dec 20, 2013
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I am not buying any product without any support - sorry Marc. that is bad news for everyone who has bought his tonearms.

Perso, its concept "Terminator" is foolproof & with a ultra short arm quasi (card-) universalis ..... easy (& stable & safe) implementation ...
It's music ...
Btw, even in DIY it's top music .....
Karel
 

marty

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
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In response to the OP, it is indeed a curiosity why tangential tracking arms are not in more widespread use. It seems that popularity among dealers, availability, legacy and quality are certainly factors. The one thing that cannot be disputed is that pivotal tone arms are by their very design, distortion inducing devices due to their inherent tracking error regardless of the most popular alignment methods currently used (Uni-Din vs Lofgren/Baerwald). Even at their best, 2nd order harmonic distortion is routinely up to 1%.

Lateral tracking error vs eccentricity
Uni Din vs LB copy.jpg

normal distortion.jpg

And when alignment isn't perfect, distortion goes up further still.

distortion.jpg

So, what's the big deal about 1-2% distortion? After all, many of our tube amps run at 2% distortion pretty regularly! Does distortion alone mandate favorability of one design over the other? Well, the answer is...it all depends! Execution is obviously a key factor. It's like the old argument; which is better, direct drive or belt drive? There is no right answer unless you are comparing one specific model to another. Maybe then, there is a satisfactory answer. But for goodness sake. I wish the advocates of pivoted arms would at least acknowledge that they are distortion inducing devices by their very nature. It's not the curse of death by any means and of course some of the best systems on the planet use them!

So often, orchestral pieces have large crescendos at the end and for that reason, if I had a pivoted arm, I would prefer the Uni-Din alignment. But better yet, my money is still on a good tangential design because I want that lower (to zero) tracking error across the entire record surface. I welcome the renewed interest by some manufacturers in the newer "classic" tangential designs, as well as the "hybrid" pivotal/linear trackers. There's a lot to look forward to in this area.

BTW, a classic reference on this subject is by Keith Howard published in Stereophile in 2010
https://www.stereophile.com/reference/arc_angles_optimizing_tonearm_geometry/index.html
 
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ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
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Nicely said Marty.
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
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Marty, I think you would absolutely salute Vic the designer of my Terminator linear tracker.

One pretty unique design feature, it works on low air pressure, 2-4 psi, whereas so many designs like the Kuzma Airline, and Air Tangent, work closer to 75 psi.

This may be the critical reason why the Terminator is almost “set and forget”, just get it level and it never lets you down (I’ve heard of some pretty frustrating issues re Airline uber fussiness).
 

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