Tangential Tone Arms, whats the issue?

marty

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Apr 20, 2010
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Marc, it's an arm that frankly I knew nothing about until I read about it. Very intriguing indeed. In fact, Vic's entire web site blew me away. This guy is one very serious and dedicated audiophile with great ingenuity and resourcefulness. He may have a few screws loose (don't we all) but what an effort! One can only admire people like this.
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
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And his stuff doesn’t flatter to deceive.

I’d go so far as to say the Terminator air linear arm is the biggest bargain in analog, maybe the whole of audio.

And unlike more commercial concerns where 5000 hours of R&D and brainstorming is reflected in the final price, Vic never charged for this, for him he was happy dismantling and reconstructing Lencos etc on his kitchen table to get the final result.

I do know to get analog significantly in advance of Vic’s gear I’d have to spend at least £30k. And even here it’ll be more a matter of taste than actual superiority.

Vic is a fascinating character, a retired dentist originally from the US, but settled here in the UK.

He’s beloved by the Lenco restore community, and to sell 250+ arms and 50+ tts of his own design is absolutely commendable.

He has absolutely no time for the expensive bling of stratospherically priced audio jewellery.
 

zerostargeneral

Well-Known Member
Apr 14, 2018
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In response to the OP, it is indeed a curiosity why tangential tracking arms are not in more widespread use. It seems that popularity among dealers, availability, leagacy and quality are certainly factors. The one thing that cannot be disputed is that pivotal tone arms are by their very design, distortion inducing devices due to their inherent tracking error regardless of the most popular alignment methods currently used (Uni-Din vs Lofgren/Baerwald). EVen at their best, 2nd order harmonic distortion is routinely up to 1%.

Lateral tracking error vs eccentricity
View attachment 40697

View attachment 40701

And when alignment isn't perfect, distortion goes up further still.

View attachment 40698

So, what's the big deal about 1-2% distortion? After all, many of our tube amps run at 2% distortion pretty regularly! Does distortion alone mandate favorability of one design over the other? Well, the answer is...it all depends! Execution is obviously a key factor. It's like the old argument; which is better, direct drive or belt drive? There is no right answer unless you are comparing one specific model to another. Maybe then, there is a satisfactory answer. But for goodness sake. I wish the advocates of pivoted arms would at least acknowledge that they are distortion inducing devices by their very nature. It's not the curse of death by any means and of course some of the best systems on the planet use them!

So often, orchestral pieces have large crescendos at the end and for that reason, if I had a pivoted arm, I would prefer the Uni-Din alignment. But better yet, my money is still on a good tangential design because I want that lower (to zero) tracking error across the entire record surface. I welcome the renewed interest by some manufacturers in the newer "classic" tangential designs, as well as the "hybrid" pivotal/linear trackers. There's a lot to look forward to in this area.

BTW, a classic reference on this subject is by Keith Howard published in Stereophile in 2010
https://www.stereophile.com/reference/arc_angles_optimizing_tonearm_geometry/index.html

Dear sir,

What an expertly conveyed,measured post.I am often fearful of leading the elephant into the room.

You are both brave and correct.

Kind regards,G.
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
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General, I was convinced finally by my tangential when while playing a very familiar lp, I really had no indication the lead-out grooves were approaching, so consistent and uncompressed were the last few seconds of the last track.
 

carolus

Well-Known Member
Dec 20, 2013
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Belgium (Brussels)
@ c1ferrari

Thanks.
Air bearing TT (platter) & TA ...... it's music without (mechanic-) floor-noise.
Info: a free run from 33,3rpm to 0 rpm on air ..... it takes 11minutes45sec ... amazing to see the near 0rpm ...
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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Karel, I can’t quite match that level of “friction-free”.
The Mag-Lev Salvation takes about a minute to wind down to stationary.
 

carolus

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Dec 20, 2013
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Karel, I can’t quite match that level of “friction-free”.
The Mag-Lev Salvation takes about a minute to wind down to stationary.

FYI,
Some tech info about my air bearing concept versus Vic's magnificent Mag-Lev Salvation ...
I speek only about my concept .... quasi "friction-free" (near zero)
Great difference in concept between a full air bearing & Magnetic levtation (C.f.r. Vic's website)
- Air bearing spinning platter.
- Supported by (home made) multiple air nozzles.
- Dynamic air bearing heavy platter mass 12kg
- Center: three "points" centering (near absolute center) .... concept à la Well-Tempered-Turntable (friction force near zero)
- Motor management à la Lenco. (Mag-Lev with rim-drive)
- Start up time (air bearing) ... quasi immediate (less 1/4 tour)

Some gen. info:
https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/gallery/image_page.php?album_id=105&image_id=26316

Practical free run time test: from 33,3rpm to 0rpm (without Lenco motor contact)
AIR BEARING FreerunTime.jpg
Btw, I like both TT ... but, I love my child (of course).
Karel
 
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spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
14,601
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E. England
Hey Karel, so good to hear the love for Salvation/Terminator.

I’ve gone thru a whole set of mods that have taken the level of performance to a whole new level.
I salute your efforts as well.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
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FYI,
Some tech info about my air bearing concept versus Vic's magnificent Mag-Lev Salvation ...
I speek only about my concept .... quasi "friction-free" (near zero)
Great difference in concept between a full air bearing & Magnetic levtation (C.f.r. Vic's website)
- Air bearing spinning platter.
- Supported by (home made) multiple air nozzles.
- Dynamic air bearing heavy platter mass 12kg
- Center: three "points" centering (near absolute center) .... concept à la Well-Tempered-Turntable (friction force near zero)
- Motor management à la Lenco. (Mag-Lev with rim-drive)
- Start up time (air bearing) ... quasi immediate (less 1/4 tour)

Some gen. info:
https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/gallery/image_page.php?album_id=105&image_id=26316

Practical free run time test: from 33,3rpm to 0rpm (without Lenco motor contact)
(...)
Btw, I like both TT ... but, I love my child (of course).
Karel

Great project. What type of air bearing are you using in the platter? We can read about nozzles, but can´t figure the details.

BTW, aren't you afraid that the stylus drops outside the LP? I can imagine that the cork mat can easily remove it from the cantilever ...
 

carolus

Well-Known Member
Dec 20, 2013
115
137
363
Belgium (Brussels)
Hey Karel, so good to hear the love for Salvation/Terminator.

I’ve gone thru a whole set of mods that have taken the level of performance to a whole new level.
I salute your efforts as well.

Thanks.
Vic's "Lenco transformations" was a fascinating source of inspiration for me (& the grandchildren) for further (& other) home-brew (air bearing) practical experiences.
His air bearing tangential "Terminator" (& very short TA) is simplicity itself & in the footsteps of Ladegaer (B&K) ....
Vinyl music at its best .... (sorry, it's perso. ...... & probably there are others, off course)
Allez, salukes ...
Karel
 

carolus

Well-Known Member
Dec 20, 2013
115
137
363
Belgium (Brussels)
.....type of air bearing are you using in the platter?
.....about nozzles, but can´t figure the details.
.... afraid that the stylus drops outside the LP? I can imagine that the cork mat can easily remove it from the cantilever ...

Just outside topic (sorry Moderator.).

FYI:
I was inspired by the basic concept of air bearing base plate of the Forsell Air Force One (1 air supply).
I adopted a concept with multiple nozzles (according to recent air bearing lab studies).
(I had the idea to push ... 30 .... 50kg or more TT-platter ... for the musical-fun)

For your information I give you an outline of the concept.
For the nozzles (home made) : drilling holes (in steel or Al) of 0.3mm (max) is a must (& art).

You have a point about the risks of "stylus outside LP".
I confirm, there are other more elegant & safer solutions.
ex. like; including a smaller diameter cork mat (or vinyl mat ... or even other …).
However (always):
1 °) the levels of plate & TA must be (and remain) "perfectly" leveled.
2 °) the stylus drop should be done with a sharp eye on the beginning of the groove-music and whit a steady hand (and good reflex when stylus sliding-out of the beginning groove) ....

Love for the vinyl-record-groove music is opportune ....

I hope this help.

Allez, salukes.
Karel
(Sorry Mod. for these sliding-out off topic ... a air bearing musical glissando)

More inside info:

Pics with the 3 basic platters.
Mid picture: fix platter ... the air chamber distribution (with O-rings).
Under pic: fix platter with 12 air bearing nozzles (& center hole for 3 points)
Upper pic: TT-rotating-platter .... (with upside glass & strobo)
AIR BEARING Platter & Nozzels & O-ring.jpg

About the "multiple air nozzles" plan (in home made):
AIR BEARING Nozzel .jpg
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
4,698
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Portugal
Just outside topic (sorry Moderator.).

FYI:
I was inspired by the basic concept of air bearing base plate of the Forsell Air Force One (1 air supply).
I adopted a concept with multiple nozzles (according to recent air bearing lab studies).
(I had the idea to push ... 30 .... 50kg or more TT-platter ... for the musical-fun)

For your information I give you an outline of the concept.
For the nozzles (home made) : drilling holes (in steel or Al) of 0.3mm (max) is a must (& art).


About the "multiple air nozzles" plan (in home made):
(...)

Impressive. Can we have a photo of the motor side?

BTW, do you know how to remove the platter of the Forsell? Although I own it I can't do it!
 

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