Tangential Tone Arms, whats the issue?

Hi-FiGuy

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Feb 23, 2015
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Why does not everyone use them?
The way my pee brain works it seems the perfect solution to tracking error, linear arms being to finicky and all.
Why are they not the rage?
Honest question, seeking honest answers.
 

zztop7

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Dec 12, 2012
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Why does not everyone use them?
The way my pee brain works it seems the perfect solution to tracking error, linear arms being to finicky and all.
Why are they not the rage?
Honest question, seeking honest answers.

Mechanical simplicity & the elegance of great bearings.
A tangential arm must have a mechanism for smoothly & accurately gliding along a long horizontal shaft or other horizontal locating mechanism accurately to the grooves.
The pivotal arm sweetly moves on pivot bearing with almost zero friction if designed, built, installed, and set-up correctly.

zz.
 

ddk

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May 18, 2013
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Why does not everyone use them?
The way my pee brain works it seems the perfect solution to tracking error, linear arms being to finicky and all.
Why are they not the rage?
Honest question, seeking honest answers.

Often a bitch to setup, travel requires some kind of notched belt not ideal travel following grooves, air bearing types are complex with too many variables, sound changes with airflow and air pressure. Their claim to perfection is hype there are many good pivoted arms that track great, sound great are simple to use and setup. Comparing them to cutting heads is nonsense, cutting grooves in and reading the grooves are two separate and unrelated functions.

david
 

Tango

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Mechanical simplicity & the elegance of great bearings.
A tangential arm must have a mechanism for smoothly & accurately gliding along a long horizontal shaft or other horizontal locating mechanism accurately to the grooves.
The pivotal arm sweetly moves on pivot bearing with almost zero friction if designed, built, installed, and set-up correctly.

zz.


Totally agree to the above. The Tangential achieves one objective while leaving other detrimental design objectives even more difficult to accomplish, ending up having to make more compromises than the pivot bearing design.

Kind regards,
Tang
 

Hi-FiGuy

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Feb 23, 2015
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By tangential I mean this style, do the same obstacles apply?
Evidently the video wont load, it was of the KLaudio arm.
 

microstrip

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May 30, 2010
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(...) air bearing types are complex with too many variables, sound changes with airflow and air pressure. (...)

We can get an excellent pressure regulator for less than 300 usd. And IMHO setting a tangential is much easier than most pivots - no funny angles to optimize.
 
Last edited:

microstrip

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May 30, 2010
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Why does not everyone use them?
The way my pee brain works it seems the perfect solution to tracking error, linear arms being to finicky and all.
Why are they not the rage?
Honest question, seeking honest answers.

IMHO price and convenience. An air bearing looks to be more expensive to produce than an unipivot and the source of air is a nuisance. Due to the higher lateral mass cartridge compatibility limits the number of cartridges that can be used. Horizontality of the turntable is critical - they are not adequate to suspended turntables.

The mechanical tangential arms I have seen were very critical and had severe mistracking.

But once you get used to zero angular tracking angle it can become additive.
 

Mike Lavigne

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Apr 25, 2010
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I lived with likely the best tangential arm for 9 years, the one on the Rockport Sirius III. I would describe it as a superior arm and well sorted out. it sounded fantastic. and it's strengths were memorizing....magical.

that said; when I finally sold it, it was then a 16+ year old design, and it was still the best example of that type of arm. I preferred my Durand arms overall in direct comparison (and preferred and still prefer Durand arms to other pivoted arms (I've heard) too) and that is the real issue with tangential arms, that not enough brain power and sweat equity has been put into them to attain the refinement of pivoted arms. and over time tangential arms are falling farther behind.

my perspective is that the answer is one of execution, not arm dogma. the tangential arm challenges have not been effectively overcome enough times to move the performance reference for that approach forward.

I don't think we yet know all there is to know about making a perfect tangential arm.
 

asiufy

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Jul 8, 2011
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I haven't had nearly the amount of exposure to top TTs and tonearms that some of you guys do, but I'm particularly impressed by Bergmann's implementation of an air-bearing linear tracker.
I've seen/heard the Clearaudio and the Kuzma before, and they were nowhere near as elegant as the Bergmann.
Even the entry-level Magne tracks like a champ, and it's quite easy to set up.


cheers,
alex
 

Ron Resnick

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Jan 24, 2015
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I will be very interested to read the first comparative review of the Klaudio tangential tracking tonearm.

I personally remain interested in hearing the Schroder LT.
 

ddk

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May 18, 2013
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By tangential I mean this style, do the same obstacles apply?
Evidently the video wont load, it was of the KLaudio arm.

Gadgetry is fun but in the end it's the sound that matters. Haven't heard the KLA arm nor am I interested for various reasons, it's solving a problem that doesn't need solving when the set up is done correctly, at least with the arms I'm using.

david
 

Tango

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I will be very interested to read the first comparative review of the Klaudio tangential tracking tonearm.

I personally remain interested in hearing the Schroder LT.

Might not be a comparison feedback, but I think Myles has it in his system now. Maybe he could give some impressions soon...but in another forum :D.

Kind regards,
Tang
 

rockitman

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Sep 20, 2011
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Hi-FiGuy

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Feb 23, 2015
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I was just using the KLA as an example of implementation, not personal desire.
Gadgetry is ok "If" it delivers as advertised.
How does the SME arm deal with the arc of the stylus across the record differently than other fixed arms?
I have listened to vinyl on Mikes and Steves system but never a whole side, except for my last visit to Mikes where he played what we brought.
I unfortunately was not sitting in the sweet spot for the full sides, it was Xanders day and I was so blown away at how good my 30 year old,well cared for yet excessively played, oil embargo version of Leftoverture sounded from the couch behind Xander. I was not listening for tracking error/distortion. I was however internally grinning from ear to ear.
Maybe that's the answer to my question and maybe it is a problem that does not need solving, or pursuing any further...but my brain does not like things that are not symmetric.
 

Tango

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How does the SME arm deal with the arc of the stylus across the record differently than other fixed arms......

Maybe that's the answer to my question and maybe it is a problem that does not need solving, or pursuing any further...but my brain does not like things that are not symmetric.


I was just talking to Dietrich of Acoustical System, he pretty much said with well executed 12” arm the Delta is so tiny enough he is at peace with and pursue other design aspects that can bring about much more sonic improvements fuzzy-free. Telos 12”? 3012R 12”?

Kind regards,
Tang
 

Hi-FiGuy

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Feb 23, 2015
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it's solving a problem that doesn't need solving when the set up is done correctly, at least with the arms I'm using.

david

Indeed. In Myles system now....appears to be a somewhat complicated setup procedure..arm and carts ?
]

I was just talking to Dietrich of Acoustical System, he pretty much said with well executed 12” arm the Delta is so tiny enough he is at peace with and pursue other design aspects that can bring about much more sonic improvements fuzzy-free. Telos 12”? 3012R 12”?

Kind regards,
Tang

These three things make the quest for knowledge on the subject complete.
 

gian60

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Apr 17, 2016
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I have Bergmann Sindre with his tonearm,
and i am very impress from him,very simple and in 5 years i have no one problem
 

microstrip

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May 30, 2010
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I was just using the KLA as an example of implementation, not personal desire.
Gadgetry is ok "If" it delivers as advertised.
How does the SME arm deal with the arc of the stylus across the record differently than other fixed arms?
I have listened to vinyl on Mikes and Steves system but never a whole side, except for my last visit to Mikes where he played what we brought.
I unfortunately was not sitting in the sweet spot for the full sides, it was Xanders day and I was so blown away at how good my 30 year old,well cared for yet excessively played, oil embargo version of Leftoverture sounded from the couch behind Xander. I was not listening for tracking error/distortion. I was however internally grinning from ear to ear.
Maybe that's the answer to my question and maybe it is a problem that does not need solving, or pursuing any further...but my brain does not like things that are not symmetric.


Audiophiles are very diverse and this is an hobby living around our preferences. But I can not fail to see that when we are praising our sophisticated alignment gadgets and expertise, ultra fine tuning and tracking error become extremely important and critical. When faced with tangential tonearms, tracking error seems to become a non issue ...

No reading can help people decide on this aspect - IMHO we have to listen to make up our minds.
 

XV-1

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May 24, 2010
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Personally, since hearing and living with my pivoted tangential Thales Simplicity II, the lack of tracking error at all parts of the record is noticable and addictive. Nothing wrong with other arms with normal tracking errors as those distortions can also be addictive :D

I can see why my dealer who stocks SME, Kuzma and Thales prefers the Thales as his ultimate sounding tonearm. It would interesting to hear from Frank Kuzma on what he beileves is the absolute best sound - after all he makes pivoted and true linear tracking tonearms.

thales.jpg
 
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