Mike Lavigne’s room and neutrality

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
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Like everyone, I’ve hugely enjoyed reading Ron’s report on Mike Lavigne’s system and room.

I can only imagine the fun Ron had, and it’s fascinating to see a few preconceptions being challenged.

Ron’s conclusion that Mike’s room is so neutral and open leading to the ability for Mike to easily find gear that is totally neutral itself, and hence the synergistic end result is a system that truly gets out of the way and allows the musical message thru unadulterated, is fascinating and positive.

But I disagree that there really is a cause and effect here.

For one, Mike hears some gear elsewhere, it’s not in his room first.
Maybe at a show, like the MSB Select, or new to a dealer, like the NVS.
Surely Mike is making an initial impression based on liking it (according to the high standards of his room) in less than ideal circumstances, and thus he must still be JUST liking the gear for how it sounds.

Now, maybe it then sounds even better in his room and he keeps it (and we get to hear about it), or it doesn’t (and we don’t).

Second, the room must absolutely boost to the maxx gear that hints at greatness, so that gear which maybe would appear less than neutral and characterful elsewhere is revealed to be both characterful AND hugely even in Mike’s room.

The Lamms are surely less neutral than the Darts, maybe a Garrard 301 is less neutral than the NVS.

But are we really saying that by definition their ultimate lack of last degree of neutrality laid bare by Mike’s room, would truly make Mike’s final sound any less compelling and less communicative than his actual choices?
If that is the case, why would Mike even contemplate the ML3, it’s never going to be as neutral than the Darts in the strict sense of the term.

No, he loves the Lamms because they have a certain ability to illuminate and communicate the music they’re best suited to, not because they’re neutral.
I fully get the room squeezes as much greatness out of the Lamms, but they’d never be bought for strict neutrality.

Mike loves them for what they are, and they love his room.
 
Last edited:

DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2010
6,129
181
458
La Jolla, Calif USA
Maybe we should ask what the word 'neutral' means to all of the members here. Will we get a consensus on the meaning?
If the sound of 'live' music is what we are seeking, and the colored room, or system, allows us to portray that, is there a problem with the system? Perhaps the term 'colored' could also be applied to the 'perception' that we all have of music. As a former pro musician, I can tell you that almost all of us hear things differently, particularly those who have a 'trained' ear. The more we attempt to hear certain aspects of sound, the more likely we are going to able to do exactly that. If the Lamm's are the most 'colored' devices in existence, which I suspect some a'philes will believe that they are, does this mean that they are incapable of actually producing the sound of the 'real' to those very same people?? Questions...and more Questions.:D
 

thedudeabides

Well-Known Member
Jan 16, 2011
2,126
651
1,200
Alto, NM
Maybe we should ask what the word 'neutral' means to all of the members here. Will we get a consensus on the meaning?

With all due respect, it's impossible given the inherent subjectivity of this hobby.
 

GaryProtein

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Jul 25, 2012
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With all due respect, it's impossible given the inherent subjectivity of this hobby.

"Neutral" means what you think it should sound like in real life.

The word is by its very nature, subjective.
 

Al M.

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Sep 10, 2013
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"Neutral" means what you think it should sound like in real life.

The word is by its very nature, subjective.

The problem is that also unamplified live music can sound many diverse ways, depending on acoustics (warm, bright and so on), listening distance etc. There is a wide range of real live sounds, but you would (almost) always know them to be live. So what is "neutral" then?

Some would say sound as on the recording. Yet how would we know when the recording sounds as intended? Heck, how does even the sound engineer know if the final product is precisely what he intended? The tonal balance could be shifted by the use of his monitors in the particular acoustics of his studio in ways that even he might not know.

I guess the only workable description for "neutral" may be that the system/room imparts as little of a sonic signature as to sufficiently allow for as wide a timbral palette as possible from a wide variety of recordings. Yet this does not necessarily preclude the system/room itself to be leaning, at least somewhat, towards the "warm", the "lean" or the "bright" side.
 

microstrip

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May 30, 2010
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With all due respect, it's impossible given the inherent subjectivity of this hobby.

Surely. All we know is that most of us do not pursue "objectively" neutral using the classical measurements, although a few are happy with it.
 

GaryProtein

VIP/Donor
Jul 25, 2012
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The problem is that also unamplified live music can sound many diverse ways, depending on acoustics (warm, bright and so on), listening distance etc. There is a wide range of real live sounds, but you would (almost) always know them to be live. So what is "neutral" then? . . . . .

Al, when I said what "neutral" meant, I followed that sentence with "The word is by its very nature, subjective."

Neutrality is many things to many people. Everyone will have their own definition. I don't disagree with anything you said.
 

ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
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Boston, MA
neutral = does not editorialize; thus, does not add or subtract anything. Halls et al - and consequently live music - are not neutral, and therefore, a room cannot be neutral either - otherwise, it's an anechoic chamber. They can only be tuned to control reflections and room modes.
 

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
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Greater Boston
Al, when I said what "neutral" meant, I followed that sentence with "The word is by its very nature, subjective."

Neutrality is many things to many people. Everyone will have their own definition. I don't disagree with anything you said.

Thanks for clarifying, Gary.
 

MadFloyd

Member Sponsor
May 30, 2010
3,076
774
1,700
Mass
Like everyone, I’ve hugely enjoyed reading Ron’s report on Mike Lavigne’s system and room. I can only imagine the fun Ron had, and it’s fascinating to see a few preconceptions being challenged.
Ron’s conclusion that Mike’s room is so neutral and open leading to the ability for Mike to easily find gear that is totally neutral itself, and hence the synergistic end result is a system that truly gets out of the way and allows the musical message thru unadulterated, is fascinating and positive.
But I disagree that there really is a cause and effect here.
For one, Mike hears some gear elsewhere, it’s not in his room first.
Maybe at a show, like the MSB Select, or new to a dealer, like the NVS.
Surely Mike is making an initial impression based on liking it (according to the high standards of his room) in less than ideal circumstances, and thus he must still be JUST liking the gear for how it sounds.
Now, maybe it then sounds even better in his room and he keeps it (and we get to hear about it), or it doesn’t (and we don’t).
Second, the room must absolutely boost to the maxx gear that hints at greatness, so that gear which maybe would appear less than neutral and characterful elsewhere is revealed to be both characterful AND hugely even in Mike’s room.
The Lamms are surely less neutral than the Darts, maybe a Garrard 301 is less neutral than the NVS.
But are we really saying that by definition their ultimate lack of last degree of neutrality laid bare by Mike’s room, would truly make Mike’s final sound any less compelling and less communicative than his actual choices? If that is the case, why would Mike even contemplate the ML3, it’s never going to be as neutral than the Darts in the strict sense of the term.
No, he loves the Lamms because they have a certain ability to illuminate and communicate the music they’re best suited to, not because they’re neutral.
I fully get the room squeezes as much greatness out of the Lamms, but they’d never be bought for strict neutrality.
Mike loves them for what they are, and they love his room.

Please consider using the ENTER key to create empty lines between paragraphs. Your posts are very hard to read.
 

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
8,681
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Please consider using the ENTER key to create empty lines between paragraphs. Your posts are very hard to read.

+1

Which is why I didn't even read your post, Marc. Too cumbersome.
 

jeff1225

Well-Known Member
Jan 29, 2012
3,007
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The problem is that also unamplified live music can sound many diverse ways, depending on acoustics (warm, bright and so on), listening distance etc. There is a wide range of real live sounds, but you would (almost) always know them to be live. So what is "neutral" then?

Some would say sound as on the recording. Yet how would we know when the recording sounds as intended? Heck, how does even the sound engineer know if the final product is precisely what he intended? The tonal balance could be shifted by the use of his monitors in the particular acoustics of his studio in ways that even he might not know.

I guess the only workable description for "neutral" may be that the system/room imparts as little of a sonic signature as to sufficiently allow for as wide a timbral palette as possible from a wide variety of recordings. Yet this does not necessarily preclude the system/room itself to be leaning, at least somewhat, towards the "warm", the "lean" or the "bright" side.

To build on this statement, we've all heard a lot of TERRIBLE live sound. I won't go to a show at the Forum in Los Angeles unless I'm on the floor due to the slap echo. Walt Disney Hall sounds so quite, with the lack of reflections, it sounds like listening to head phones. Chick Corea famously complained about Disney Hall calling it too dead for jazz. I personally want my system to sound like Tula's Jazz club in Seattle, lively and in your face.

So, when someone says they want their system to sound like live music, I always ask where.
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
14,604
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E. England
I’ve reformatted my thread text.
Maybe people other than me can now understand it.
 

Joe Whip

Well-Known Member
Feb 8, 2014
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Since we can’t really know what a given recording really is supposed to sound like unless we were in the control room, this is always a difficult thing to answer. One person’s neutral is another’s dry or bright or... Personally, I would like to take the room out of the equation as much as possible within limits. It is not possible to do so without a purpose built room from the floor up. I have made my room as neutral as I can with floor treatment and the choice of furniture and furnishing as the room will have to function as a room when I have gone to the great concert hall in the sky. I would like to hear the recording venue as much as possible with minimal room colorations. I would rather be transported to the recording venue rather than the reverse. I try to do that the best I can, within the limits of my budget. Just my 2 cents.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
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I’ve reformatted my thread text.
Maybe people other than me can now understand it.

Now that I can read it, can you tell me why should we consider that the Dartzeel is more neutral than the Lamm? Up to 5 watts the DartZeel has much higher distortion than the Lamm ...

 

Bruce B

WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
Apr 25, 2010
7,006
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1,740
Snohomish, WA
www.pugetsoundstudios.com
neutral = does not editorialize; thus, does not add or subtract anything. Halls et al - and consequently live music - are not neutral, and therefore, a room cannot be neutral either - otherwise, it's an anechoic chamber. They can only be tuned to control reflections and room modes.


Since we can’t really know what a given recording really is supposed to sound like unless we were in the control room, this is always a difficult thing to answer. One person’s neutral is another’s dry or bright or... Personally, I would like to take the room out of the equation as much as possible within limits. It is not possible to do so without a purpose built room from the floor up.

I have heard only 3-4 rooms that can do this.... this a Mastering Engineer's dream... to be able to hear if you change 325Hz (or any freq.) up or down .5dB
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
16,017
13,346
2,665
Beverly Hills, CA
To build on this statement, we've all heard a lot of TERRIBLE live sound. I won't go to a show at the Forum in Los Angeles unless I'm on the floor due to the slap echo. Walt Disney Hall sounds so quite, with the lack of reflections, it sounds like listening to head phones. Chick Corea famously complained about Disney Hall calling it too dead for jazz. I personally want my system to sound like Tula's Jazz club in Seattle, lively and in your face.

So, when someone says they want their system to sound like live music, I always ask where.

That is very interesting. I do not really know what I am basing it on but I feel like the acoustics are Walt Disney Concert Hall are great.

From Wikipedia:

The walls and ceiling of the hall are finished with Douglas-fir while the floor is finished with oak. Columbia Showcase & Cabinet Co. Inc., based in Sun Valley, CA, produced all of the ceiling panels, wall panels and architectural woodwork for the main auditorium and lobbies. The Hall's reverberation time is approximately 2.2 seconds unoccupied and 2.0 seconds occupied.​
 

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