Effects of improved power cords on turntables

spiritofmusic

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But Francisco, there is no feedback system with Salvation tt speed control.

It’s in effect “set and (kind of) forget”, where I need to tweak/nudge speed setting every couple of days.

Vic tried two sorts of feedback loop to regulate speed, and both were deleterious to SQ, so he went for 100% analog setting of speed, no micro-adjusting mid-play.
 

DaveC

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I've not compared power cables on a turntable, but I recently did compare power cables on one of my Studer A-820's.

I had acquired a new power cable using the new Furutech DPS-4 bulk cable with the Furutech NCF plugs. it was cheaper than the Absolute Fidelity (Genesis Loudspeakers) power cables with the NCF plugs I've been using everywhere (I have 11 of them and just ordered a 12th for my new Studer).

after 5 days on my Audiodarma Cable Cooker and another 2 days to settle in place and powered up I did an A/B on the Studer A-820. unfortunately; it was not close in terms of body and refinement, the Absolute Fidelity was quite a bit better. the two cables were close on noise floor and dynamics. I had been hoping that the 'machine made' DPS-4 bulk cable could compete with the hand made and very good AF power cord. we used the stock signal path of the Studer for this test so the audio circuits would be in play for the test; so who knows if we are just powering a motor on the tape deck or turntable if we would have heard a difference one way or the other. and with all those other Absolute Fidelity power cords in my system there could also be a synergy thing going on, although I doubt it would affect a tape deck.....but it's something that could be at play.

this is just a data point.

A tape deck is going to have a voltage-amplifying output stage, tt does not.


As microstrip pointed out the only effect a PC may have on a tt is a ground connection with reduced impedance. Since Ohm graciously pointed out V=IR, a reduction in R, or impedance in the power cable's ground leg, will reduce noise voltage caused by the tt motor's leakage currents, which could possibly effect the rest of the system through the AC power system. This is actually a large reason power cables sound different from one another, and depending on the components in question, the ground leg of a power cable may actually be directly in the signal path as a result of return-currents from the signal leg going through the ground system's lower resistance connection vs the interconnect cable.
 

spiritofmusic

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So to be “clear” (when have audio results followed clear predictions?), it’s not out of the q that a pwr cord into a tt motor/psu/speed controller could influence SQ?
 

DaveC

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So to be “clear” (when have audio results followed clear predictions?), it’s not out of the q that a pwr cord into a tt motor/psu/speed controller could influence SQ?

Nope! But not directly and I think it's likely the hot and neutral conductors won't matter at all. The degree the ground leg matters depends on the tt motor and the leakage currents it produces. And the degree this matters to ultimate SQ depends on the rest of the AC system as well.
 

spiritofmusic

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Dave, feed to room isolated before feed to rest of chapel, 8 kVA balanced power transformer, 6 Oyaides dedicated lines, 6 Furutech duplexes.

Bespoke psu to tt speed controller using special ?R?-core transformer, oversized choke and specially selected caps, Gold connector specialist DC cable.

TT speed controller 100% analog, no digital servo-feedback, speed needs manual tweaking every other day.

Sablon Reserva Elite pwr cord.
 

DaveC

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Dave, feed to room isolated before feed to rest of chapel, 8 kVA balanced power transformer, 6 Oyaides dedicated lines, 6 Furutech duplexes.

Bespoke psu to tt speed controller using special ?R?-core transformer, oversized choke and specially selected caps, Gold connector specialist DC cable.

TT speed controller 100% analog, no digital servo-feedback, speed needs manual tweaking every other day.

Sablon Reserva Elite pwr cord.

IDK... would take a more in-depth look to understand all the specifics. There are no hard standards for grounding and/or isolating grounds in audio, which makes things seem very random sometimes. Some designers will use schemes to prevent return current going through PC ground legs, but others may directly connect every ground in the component.
 

spiritofmusic

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Dave, no need but thanks for your overview.

At least there isn’t 100% skepticism for what I’m reporting.
 

DaveC

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Dave, no need but thanks for your overview.

At least there isn’t 100% skepticism for what I’m reporting.

I think there's definitely a chance that a PC will make a difference running a tt motor, but not for the reason folks are assuming, as I assume they mean power deliver by the hot and neutral wires, but I'd guess those wires will have no effect. So, it's more a grounding issue than power delivery.

This is a good example of why you need to keep an open mind and not simply dismiss others' experiences as impossible. It may be possible, and it may be due to reasons that we simply don't understand or are aware of.
 

microstrip

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But Francisco, there is no feedback system with Salvation tt speed control.

It’s in effect “set and (kind of) forget”, where I need to tweak/nudge speed setting every couple of days.

Vic tried two sorts of feedback loop to regulate speed, and both were deleterious to SQ, so he went for 100% analog setting of speed, no micro-adjusting mid-play.

How do you think that precision, stable and drift free analog voltage regulators operate? Usually using feedback ...

Unless we have more precise technical details of your controller we can not know, I am just hypothesizing on the general cases.
 

garylkoh

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I designed the power cord, and my wife just built another power cord that Mike L ordered for yet another Studer he bought. To run it in a little before delivery, I plugged it into my VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable.

May be I heard a distinct improvement over the ordinary cord I was using because my lovely wife built it. May be Mike heard a difference because he spent his hard-earned money on it. As with all things in this hobby, if you don't hear a difference, don't buy it. Don't rain on someone else's parade just because you think different.
 

microstrip

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I think there's definitely a chance that a PC will make a difference running a tt motor, but not for the reason folks are assuming, as I assume they mean power deliver by the hot and neutral wires, but I'd guess those wires will have no effect. So, it's more a grounding issue than power delivery. (...)

+1!

But I think no one, except the eternal skeptics, is assuming any more that it is a power delivery.
 

spiritofmusic

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Gary, I’m absolutely sure the effects of a power cord are to the square power of the cuteness of the designer.

Your wife’s cord is by definition very impressive.

Too bad so many other designers aren’t winning any beauty contests, their stuff is just so meh LOL.
 

miniguy

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The interesting thing for me is that a power cord upgrade for any of my electronics produces the same kind of audible improvements in my turntable, both in quality and quantity, with the same upgraded cord.
 

spiritofmusic

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Well, if it’s a pwr cords to the pre, then the whole system will feel the benefit.
 

spiritofmusic

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Miniguy, me and you both.

Apparently we ought to know, it just ain’t so.
 

Chuck Lee

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I noticed that improving a power cord on a turntable back when I replaced the stock one on an old Sota star TT using a better plug and some thicker wire.
Then a better power cord worked on the power supply of a Rega P-9,the current owner is in the camp that feels it doesn't make a difference-his bad.
I have used a couple of DIY power cords and a Shunyata Python on a SME 10 and each one has a signature-some just make the sound more solid than others.
If you have a detachable power cord and you are running stock,beg,borrow or steal a better one and give it a try.
If you are plugging the TT into a power conditioner ,then you can not say that a better power cord can make no difference.Power matters ,since everything that isn't run off a battery is captive to the power it is fed.If your TT sounds better thru a power conditioner, then take the next step, you are half way home.
 

Pb Blimp

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Here is what Gunther from Acoustic Signature thinks about the subject.

http://www.acoustic-signature.com/index.php?article_id=40&clang=1

With Gunther's Alphdig TT controller creating a perfect sign wave in the electrical feed to my Ascona I hear no change from using different power cords. That DOES NOT mean your hypothesis is not supported by Gunther as he has clearly taken steps to mitigate noisy power's impact on TT motor performance. Also, the potential for power line oscillation and emi emissions polluting cables and system components in proximity to a TT's digital controllers would also be improved by the use of shielded cables and those that have built in filtering capability (furthering supporting your hypothesis).

That all said, I refuse to believe if you have clean power (and thereby accurate speed control) to start and you isolate the the TT controller's impact on the rest of your system (both power line oscillation and emi emission) that the PC will have any impact on the new electrical signal generated from the mechanical actions of the MM or MC in the needle. It just won't happen IMO.
 

spiritofmusic

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Sure Paul, it didn’t happen when I switched pwr cords.

It’s still not happening.
 

Pb Blimp

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Sure Paul, it didn’t happen when I switched pwr cords.

It’s still not happening.

Did you focus on the occasions where I believe it will make a difference????

All I am asking is whether you are sure the changes you are hearing are coming from the new PC doing a better job of filtering existing power line noise, damping inter-system line oscillations or shielding emi emissions as opposed to, in isolation of these improvements, directly impacting the needles behavior as it relates to mechanically generating a new electrical signal through electromagnetism.
 
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