Frustrating Reading About all these Super Expensive Arms and Their Difficulty in Setup.

Vintages

New Member
Apr 8, 2018
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Kind of tired of listening to the woes of setting up these fortune costing arms only to hear its not good enough and its quite not right. If it cost 5000 in whatever currency it better be the best and easy to set up or its useless to me. Ive heard enough of the whining and complaining how that other one is just a bit better. Like really?

I dont mind spending the money but if it takes a full day to set up an arm and cartridge right then both are useless and unpractical. Give me a vintage sme, ortofon, jelco, saec, rega. Im tired about reading the woes of these abnoxious high end tonearms not quite right. Must be fantasy not reality listening.

A rega years ago was the rave of the audio world and it was amazing to my ears in mids highs and bass. What has happened in the analog world lately? Some have dug yourself a deep hole you cant get out of. Spending spending and more spending on something that doesnt really exist. Yet these manufacturers are making millions off many who are gullible. Linn Sondek is blamed for starting this madness with all the cash grabbing upgrades. Its all planned in advance folks to steal your money. Shame on them and some of you for believing it. Its getting ridiculous now.

Just because a tonearm costs more than 2000 units doesnt mean its sonically better than a 500 arm. I dare anyone to prove me or others who agree with me wrong. Lets not start with newer cartridges now. Its more snake oil above 600 bucks quid or euros whatever. Seriously its a cash cow and cash grab. Very sad it has come to this.

Audio should be fun beautiful and easy but this way overpriced astronomical priced turntable tonearm and cartridge crap has got to stop. Its gotten way out of hand now. Where did all the simlpicity go? What the heck was wrong with an s shaped tonearm on a great technics turntable? Or the rega tonearm just because it doesnt have vta its not audiophile. Bs. By what criteria. Who makes up these rules? Sounds like a religion now.
 
Last edited:

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,522
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3,515
USA
Kind of tired of listening to the woes of setting up these fortune costing arms only to hear its not good enough and its quite not right. If it cost 5000 in whatever currency it better be the best and easy to set up or its useless to me. Ive heard enough of the whining and complaining how that other one is just a bit better. Like really?
I dont mind spending the money but if it takes a full day to set up an arm and cartridge right then both are useless and unpractical. Give me a vintage sme, ortofon, jelco, saec, rega. Im tired about reading the woes of these abnoxious high end tonearms not quite right. Must be fantasy not reality listening. A rega years ago was the rave of the audio world and it was amazing to my ears in mids highs and bass. What has happened in the analog world lately? Some have dug yourself a deep hole you cant get out of. Spending spending and more spending on something that doesnt really exist. Yet these manufacturers are making millions off many who are gullible. Linn Sondek is blamed for starting this madness with all the cash grabbing upgrades. Its all planned in advance folks to steal your money. Shame on them and some of you for believing it. Its getting ridiculous now. Just because a tonearm costs more than 2000 units doesnt mean its sonically better than a 500 arm. I dare anyone to prove me or others who agree with me wrong. Lets not start with newer cartridges now. Its more snake oil above 600 bucks quid or euros whatever. Seriously its a cash cow and cash grab. Very sad it has come to this. Audio should be fun beautiful and easy but this way overpriced astronomical priced turntable tonearm and cartridge crap has got to stop. Its gotten way out of hand now. Where did all the simlpicity go? What the heck was wrong with an s shaped tonearm on a great technics turntable? Or the rega tonearm just because it doesnt have vta its not audiophile. Bs. By what criteria. Who makes up these rules? Sounds like a religion now.

Welcome to the forum, Vintages. That is quite a first post for a new member. Could you be more specific about the arms you seem to be complaining about? What are they, and where are you reading about the woes of setting them up? Getting the most out of vinyl requires careful set up because precision matters. I have not read that many people are complaining about this. I also am not sure how many companies are making "millions off many who are gullible. What companies are you talking about?
 

Vintages

New Member
Apr 8, 2018
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0
much better, don't you agree ? may I suggest you get away from analog and stick with digital !
I have both and like both but
When was analog ever so difficult except in the past 30 years with this turntable tonearm upgrade madness? My first high end turntable a rega 3 was spectacular and quick setup
 

twitch

Well-Known Member
Jun 17, 2010
594
236
1,605
SE Pa
it's only difficult if you allow it to be. Myself, my 8 year old VPI Aries 3 just keeps playing along superbly !
 

Tirebiter

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2018
117
74
135
Golden CO
From my experience, albeit with a limited number of arms, I would have to say that the Graham Phantom III setup was easy peasy compared to older VPI and Thorens designs.....

I will also say that the newer designs make access to adjustments to VTF, VTA and azimuth much easier ...which means that given infinite possibilities, people will try an infinite number of settings and without proper setup understanding, will never really find the nirvana they hope to find. They get caught up in tweakerville, thus the frustration and venting sets in....

As with all things, the laws of diminishing returns will be a factor....those who partake in the adventure and have that understanding will be fine. It is those who don't really understand the ways of vinyl who will be disappointed when $$$ don't instantly reap aural rewards.

So yes, some of the older designs were great...I missed on a chance for a NIB SME 3012R and kick myself. So I settled for new, spent more money (not by much) and am happy...but I did my homework so no regrets.
 

Vintages

New Member
Apr 8, 2018
9
1
0
From my experience, albeit with a limited number of arms, I would have to say that the Graham Phantom III setup was easy peasy compared to older VPI and Thorens designs.....

I will also say that the newer designs make access to adjustments to VTF, VTA and azimuth much easier ...which means that given infinite possibilities, people will try an infinite number of settings and without proper setup understanding, will never really find the nirvana they hope to find. They get caught up in tweakerville, thus the frustration and venting sets in....

As with all things, the laws of diminishing returns will be a factor....those who partake in the adventure and have that understanding will be fine. It is those who don't really understand the ways of vinyl who will be disappointed when $$$ don't instantly reap aural rewards.

So yes, some of the older designs were great...I missed on a chance for a NIB SME 3012R and kick myself. So I settled for new, spent more money (not by much) and am happy...but I did my homework so no regrets.

Thanks so is the graham phantom 3 better sounding in the highs mids mid bass and deep bass 3D sound and easier to set up than any Jelco, Goldmund, Vpi, Audiomods,

Origin Silver, Rega 9, Linn Ittok, Project, Technics 500/1000, Alphason,

Grace, Mission, Tw Raven, Morch, Ortofon, EMT, Thorens, ESL, Sme 3012, Sme 3009, Sme V, IV,

Schroeder, Kuzma, Talea, Fidelity Research, Eminent, Ikeda, Breuer, unipivot1, Saec,
Stax, Kenwood 007 arm, Sony top Arm, and better sounding than any air bearing or linear tracking tonearm and others that i forgot to mention?
 

DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2010
6,129
181
458
La Jolla, Calif USA
You have some good points..and a lot that I disagree with. Tonearms, like any gear, come in all sorts of quality and ability...
Looking at your nomiker...Vintages; I am going to guess that you prefer the vintage stuff. While some of it is excellent, most of it can be- and is, bettered by the SOTA today. I know it is easy and easier on the pocket book to look at vintage gear and state that it is the way to go, unfortunately...and IMHO, that's not always my experience. Your example of Linn was actually a poor one, IMO. Linn have always offered up upgrades that were sonically beneficial...and yes at a price. Nonetheless, I would rather have a platform that the manufacturer supports through upgrades and time, than one that is a boat anchor with no support or upgrade path.
Tonearms can, and do, sound VERY different based on design and numerous other variables....and NO- IME the oldest models are rarely the best available options. Including the vaunted SME 3012R! All IMHO.
 

Tirebiter

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2018
117
74
135
Golden CO
Thanks so is the graham phantom 3 better sounding in the highs mids mid bass and deep bass 3D sound and easier to set up than any Jelco, Goldmund, Vpi, Audiomods,

Origin Silver, Rega 9, Linn Ittok, Project, Technics 500/1000, Alphason,

Grace, Mission, Tw Raven, Morch, Ortofon, EMT, Thorens, ESL, Sme 3012, Sme 3009, Sme V, IV,

Schroeder, Kuzma, Talea, Fidelity Research, Eminent, Ikeda, Breuer, unipivot1, Saec,
Stax, Kenwood 007 arm, Sony top Arm, and better sounding than any air bearing or linear tracking tonearm and others that i forgot to mention?

I can only speak to the Phantom III compared to a VPI JMW Memorial 10...that older VPI was a royal PIA to set up by comparison, VTF, VTA and azimuth were all troublesome because somewhere along the line the original round, threaded counterweight was replaced with a weight drilled offcenter ("teardrop") which lowered the center of gravity to lessen the VPI unipivot wobble. That meant that the CW now had to be slid to or fro to adjust. No more partial turns to make incremental, precise VTF adjustments. By sliding, if the CW was not perfectly perpendicular to horizontal, azimuth was altered. All in all, very imprecise and frustrating...

The Phantom is well thought out, to the extent that it has a built in bubble level making initial leveling and VTA setup a breeze. Sound wise, it was a substantial upgrade all around but in particular, mid and low bass detail was revealed like never before. Overall it seems quite neutral whereas the upper mid could be a bit bright with the JMW. Admittedly, some of that could have been due to my setup being off but given all of the gyrations I went through, I don't think so.
 

Vintages

New Member
Apr 8, 2018
9
1
0
You have some good points..and a lot that I disagree with. Tonearms, like any gear, come in all sorts of quality and ability...
Looking at your nomiker...Vintages; I am going to guess that you prefer the vintage stuff. While some of it is excellent, most of it can be- and is, bettered by the SOTA today. I know it is easy and easier on the pocket book to look at vintage gear and state that it is the way to go, unfortunately...and IMHO, that's not always my experience. Your example of Linn was actually a poor one, IMO. Linn have always offered up upgrades that were sonically beneficial...and yes at a price. Nonetheless, I would rather have a platform that the manufacturer supports through upgrades and time, than one that is a boat anchor with no support or upgrade path.
Tonearms can, and do, sound VERY different based on design and numerous other variables....and NO- IME the oldest models are rarely the best available options. Including the vaunted SME 3012R! All IMHO.

I wouldnt call a rega 3 vintage. I am open to modern avancements and technology with regards to tonearms and lesser extent cartridges but as to drives vintage Idlers and synchronous motors direct drives and belt drives are hard to beat even by all these modern pumps and air bearing modern drives, the vintage drives still hold their own with todays drives and in many cases superior like the Lenco Rekocut Garrard 301 and td124s Mccurdy, Connouseur. Just by building better plinths and tweaking the bearings on these vintage tables they blow away tens of thousands pounds/euros/dollars vpi clear audio mitchells linns sotas regas oracles and all those spaceship looking turntables made out of gold silver platinum or whatever space age material they are made of.

Oh for sure they are the kings of cash grabs of upgrades. Planned fleecing of unsuspectibg audiophiles with deep pockets.

Then we got Power chords, Patch chords and Speaker cable Power Softeners, another billion dollar ripoff industry, silver wiring, ofc more hocus pocus, copper has been and always sounds the most musical.

I dont like my audio hobbyists getting ripped by off and industries playing on their audio emotions. If they are offering upgrades make them affordable to the customer who spent a fortune on their product. No more than hundred dollar an upgrade would be reasonable after the big bucks they spent before. Cut them a break.
 
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Vintages

New Member
Apr 8, 2018
9
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0
I can only speak to the Phantom III compared to a VPI JMW Memorial 10...that older VPI was a royal PIA to set up by comparison, VTF, VTA and azimuth were all troublesome because somewhere along the line the original round, threaded counterweight was replaced with a weight drilled offcenter ("teardrop") which lowered the center of gravity to lessen the VPI unipivot wobble. That meant that the CW now had to be slid to or fro to adjust. No more partial turns to make incremental, precise VTF adjustments. By sliding, if the CW was not perfectly perpendicular to horizontal, azimuth was altered. All in all, very imprecise and frustrating...

The Phantom is well thought out, to the extent that it has a built in bubble level making initial leveling and VTA setup a breeze. Sound wise, it was a substantial upgrade all around but in particular, mid and low bass detail was revealed like never before. Overall it seems quite neutral whereas the upper mid could be a bit bright with the JMW. Admittedly, some of that could have been due to my setup being off but given all of the gyrations I went through, I don't think so.

What price range are we talking about?
 

DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2010
6,129
181
458
La Jolla, Calif USA
I wouldnt call a rega 3 vintage. I am open to modern avancements and technology with regards to tonearms and lesser extent cartridges but as to drives vintage Idlers and synchronous motors direct drives and belt drives are hard to beat even by all these modern pumps and air bearing modern drives, the vintage drives still hold their own with todays drives and in many cases superior like the Lenco Rekocut Garrard 301 and td124s Mccurdy, Connouseur. Just by building better plinths and tweaking the bearings on these vintage tables they blow away tens of thousands pounds/euros/dollars vpi clear audio mitchells linns sotas regas oracles and all those spaceship looking turntables made out of gold silver platinum or whatever space age material they are made of.

Oh for sure they are the kings of cash grabs of upgrades. Planned fleecing of unsuspectibg audiophiles with deep pockets.

Then we got Power chords, Patch chords and Speaker cable Power Softeners, another billion dollar ripoff industry, silver wiring, ofc more hocus pocus, copper has been and always sounds the most musical.

I dont like my audio hobbyists getting ripped by off and industries playing on their audio emotions. If they are offering upgrades make them affordable to the customer who spent a fortune on their product. No more than hundred dollar an upgrade would be reasonable after the big bucks they spent before. Cut them a break.

Again, some of your points I can concur with. However, you lose me when you compare some of the typical vintage tables..Lenco, Garrads etc., with the best out there today. Once again, you talk of the Linn...which version, what model and how old? The LP12 in its current Klimax model with Radikal D is a very very different table than one that was built even ten years ago! Have you actually heard one of the new LP12 Klimax models, a current Basis or a current SME?
Listen to a Walker or a Acoustic Signature Invictus and then tell me that the old Lenco in a nice plinth competes....
 

Tirebiter

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2018
117
74
135
Golden CO
What price range are we talking about?

I would be guessing on the VPI, perhaps 2 to 2.5 units 15 years or so back. List price on the Graham is 7 units, however I found a deal on mine at about half price because the lift arm had broken off during shipping and discarded. I fixed it on my own and is probably the only one in existence with a birdseye maple lift arm. By comparison 35 year old, unused SME 3012R's in original factory condition appear to be fetching 3 to 3.5 units.......when you can find them.
 

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
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Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
Setting up properly a turntable, tonearm and cartridge from any class is part of the analog performance.
It comes with the territory. It's for dedicated people, same for open-reel-tape decks.

Digital is much easier, for people who don't have the time, the extra dedication, the deeper passion of the full body and mind experience.

Digital is like artificial intelligence, CGI visual effects, surround sound effects, computer robots.

I highly respect the passionate people, no matter if they have an analog rig of $1,000 or one of $10,000 or one of $100,000 or one of $1 million. The money is relative, the passion is common.

Digital audiophiles don't have the same higher degree of romance and passion, they are in another dimension, not as elaborate in setups and not as involving with the physical body to perform all the adjustments required for a TT analog rig...the cleaning of the records, the needle, the brushes, the solutions, the jewelry screwdrivers, the magnetic field, the isolation, the earth rotation, the speed accuracy, the tangent, the horizontal and vertical azimuth, the tracking force, the thickness of various records, the getting up after 20 minutes to turn the record over...side 2, the drop of the needle ...

Digital; stream Tidal or open the tray and put the disc inside and press play.
Sit down for 75 minutes of listening non-stop.
It's easy, for people living the simplicity.
 

Tirebiter

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2018
117
74
135
Golden CO
Well stated...
 

cjfrbw

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Pleasanton, CA
If you don't like the tease, don't go into the strip club.
 

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