Top level Audio Note digital vs. MSB? What are the sonic differences?

awsmone

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2014
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Canberra Australia
Pretty much agree with everything you say about Audio note

Having heard various versions of AN I think a tricked up one is better value than their top of the range price and sound wise

My only query is about slow, or calm, my tricked up one is very very dynamic, just lacking edgy sound, but wouldn’t describe it as slow or calm

Could it be impedance issue or the tubes your using

Fascinated by your comparo with the Kassandra, does it do dsd on USB or only pcm?
 

Legolas

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Dec 27, 2015
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Pretty much agree with everything you say about Audio note

Having heard various versions of AN I think a tricked up one is better value than their top of the range price and sound wise

My only query is about slow, or calm, my tricked up one is very very dynamic, just lacking edgy sound, but wouldn’t describe it as slow or calm

Could it be impedance issue or the tubes your using

Fascinated by your comparo with the Kassandra, does it do dsd on USB or only pcm?

I think your have an old non AD1865 unit? They changed quite a bit after that. My maxed out kit DAC is more detailed and faster than the AN UK DAC 5, even after I fitted the Duelunds in it.

The stock DAC 5 special is too slow and heavy in the upper bass / lower mids. I have a real dislike for the AN UK copper coupling caps. I mean, why put £35 caps in a level 5 product? The AN silver caps are better, but IMO the Duelunds go further and sound very natural yet retain the detail and keep the speed up, nearly as fast as Teflon. I tried Teflon as well but it was too cold and lost some body.

My tubes were spot on, I bought most of them from AN, inc NOS Telefunkens (Peter Q's favourites). It was good after the Duelunds were fitted, but after the Kassandra landed, it highlighted the shortcomings of that design and how coloured it was. That colour was possibly classic Audio Note, nice and cuddly, but in the end too much music sounded the same on it to an extent. Also not an impedance issue as I also tried it through an AN UK pre-amplifier.

Digital back in the mid 2000's was very hard to get right, enough detail but also a type of 'analogue' sound. To get that you either had to loose some details and add warmth, or go all out on detail and loose realism. I am generalising, but that was how it seemed to me back then. Things have progressed since thankfully with some designs now competing head on with good TTs and for more affordable prices. I am not sure of the market for the Fifth Element, I haven't read any posts of someone who actually bought one. Only dealer / long term demos. Maybe they sold some to the far east? But the smoke and mirrors will continue until we hear from a real world test v other top DACs.
 

Al M.

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Sep 10, 2013
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Anyway, my view is obvious here, I think the AN DACs sound very good, are very overpriced, and don't seem to have moved on since around 2008 (my DAC 5).

But I will give them some credit, they have / had some good ideas back then such as:

1. NOS
2. Tubes in the PS
3. Tubed gain stage
4. Output transformers
5. I/V stage done with a transformer
6. Great sounding chip in the AD1865
7. No digital filtering
8. Class A no negative feedback

But cheap bent steel chassis which part from looks does nothing to negate microphonics.

So in my view, they are great at timbre, easy going sound, very realistic. But lack world class dynamics, have soggy lower bass extension and limited upper treble resolution (in the right amount). It is a design sat in the warmer calmer camp of the DACs, and possibly the opposite of say a dCS?

Hope this helps.....

With your preferences, you might enjoy the little BorderPatrol DAC which is much, much cheaper than the AN gear:

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/borderpatrol_dac_se.htm

There is also a review on Parttime Audiophile.

I heard it at AXPONA last year and was very impressed.

It comes with either USB or coax input, or switchable.
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
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I think your have an old non AD1865 unit? They changed quite a bit after that. My maxed out kit DAC is more detailed and faster than the AN UK DAC 5, even after I fitted the Duelunds in it.

The stock DAC 5 special is too slow and heavy in the upper bass / lower mids. I have a real dislike for the AN UK copper coupling caps. I mean, why put £35 caps in a level 5 product? The AN silver caps are better, but IMO the Duelunds go further and sound very natural yet retain the detail and keep the speed up, nearly as fast as Teflon. I tried Teflon as well but it was too cold and lost some body.

My tubes were spot on, I bought most of them from AN, inc NOS Telefunkens (Peter Q's favourites). It was good after the Duelunds were fitted, but after the Kassandra landed, it highlighted the shortcomings of that design and how coloured it was. That colour was possibly classic Audio Note, nice and cuddly, but in the end too much music sounded the same on it to an extent. Also not an impedance issue as I also tried it through an AN UK pre-amplifier.

Digital back in the mid 2000's was very hard to get right, enough detail but also a type of 'analogue' sound. To get that you either had to loose some details and add warmth, or go all out on detail and loose realism. I am generalising, but that was how it seemed to me back then. Things have progressed since thankfully with some designs now competing head on with good TTs and for more affordable prices. I am not sure of the market for the Fifth Element, I haven't read any posts of someone who actually bought one. Only dealer / long term demos. Maybe they sold some to the far east? But the smoke and mirrors will continue until we hear from a real world test v other top DACs.

Hi Astro,
I am confused by "coupling caps" in an AN level 5 product. i thought it was all transformer coupled.
 

George47

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2018
7
2
108
I have heard both DACs but in different systems and rooms.

I agree with a lot of what has been written about the Audionote but there have been changes. In Hifi Critic Kevin Fiske reviewed the latest AN4.1x with the new 'balanced' sound using the latest and better components from AN. I have that reviewed item here and it has a different sound to the old 4.1x. It is much less coloured and it has a more dynamic sound but has not lost that natural organic sound. I think it has moved up the audio scale and is likely to be more usable in a non AN systems. I am using it with Pass Labs amplifiers. Yes SS in an AN system.

I heard the MSB DAC with MSB amps and the new Tannoys and it had a superb soundstage with a tremendously natural sound. Hearing Kraftwerk live was superb but different. I would say the MSB is likely to be the more transparent and had a more sparkling top end but it did not quite match the totally natural sound of the AN.

A listen is mandatory (if possible). The Kassandra looks interesting.
 

caesar

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2010
4,290
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Gentlemen, I greatly appreciate you delineating the differences between these two great brands in a rational and respectful way.

We can leave the crotch-grabbing to the professional "audio journalists"... Would love to see a rematch of the fight between Valin and Breuninger, as now they can fight not only about the best turntable but about the best DAC. :)
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
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London
I have heard both DACs but in different systems and rooms.

I agree with a lot of what has been written about the Audionote but there have been changes. In Hifi Critic Kevin Fiske reviewed the latest AN4.1x with the new 'balanced' sound using the latest and better components from AN. I have that reviewed item here and it has a different sound to the old 4.1x. It is much less coloured and it has a more dynamic sound but has not lost that natural organic sound. I think it has moved up the audio scale and is likely to be more usable in a non AN systems. I am using it with Pass Labs amplifiers. Yes SS in an AN system.

I heard the MSB DAC with MSB amps and the new Tannoys and it had a superb soundstage with a tremendously natural sound. Hearing Kraftwerk live was superb but different. I would say the MSB is likely to be the more transparent and had a more sparkling top end but it did not quite match the totally natural sound of the AN.

A listen is mandatory (if possible). The Kassandra looks interesting.

Was this is in the UK? If so, did he at that time have the kuzma analog set up and the AR 250 SE amps, because they were both way superior in that tannoy system
 

Legolas

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Dec 27, 2015
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Hi Astro,
I am confused by "coupling caps" in an AN level 5 product. i thought it was all transformer coupled.

The AN DACs all have coupling caps to each tube (so 2). Yes it is odd through. My old AN UK M3 Pre-amplifier was a similar 5685 line stage section to the one in my maxed out kit DAC, yet that M3 had no coupling caps. It had output transformers as well.
 

Legolas

VIP/Donor
Dec 27, 2015
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I have heard both DACs but in different systems and rooms.

I agree with a lot of what has been written about the Audionote but there have been changes. In Hifi Critic Kevin Fiske reviewed the latest AN4.1x with the new 'balanced' sound using the latest and better components from AN. I have that reviewed item here and it has a different sound to the old 4.1x. It is much less coloured and it has a more dynamic sound but has not lost that natural organic sound. I think it has moved up the audio scale and is likely to be more usable in a non AN systems. I am using it with Pass Labs amplifiers. Yes SS in an AN system.

I heard the MSB DAC with MSB amps and the new Tannoys and it had a superb soundstage with a tremendously natural sound. Hearing Kraftwerk live was superb but different. I would say the MSB is likely to be the more transparent and had a more sparkling top end but it did not quite match the totally natural sound of the AN.

A listen is mandatory (if possible). The Kassandra looks interesting.

I have heard an AN UK 4.1x as Cheshire audio show back in 2016, I presume it was as your 4.1x? It sounded similar to my recollections on the DAC 5 Special, easy going sound, but again lacked world class dynamics or transparency. I think AN UK have developed some new ceramic resistors? Not sure what else has changed in the 4.1x? I have a buddy who had the DAC 5 Signature built up in 2015, and that was flawed by the Kassandra on a home demo. He then sold all his AN gear to go Aries Cerat after that. He also had the M8, some level 5 AN-Es and a Jinro power amp I think it was. Anyway, all AN level 5. It was no contest....
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
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I have heard both DACs but in different systems and rooms.

I agree with a lot of what has been written about the Audionote but there have been changes. In Hifi Critic Kevin Fiske reviewed the latest AN4.1x with the new 'balanced' sound using the latest and better components from AN. I have that reviewed item here and it has a different sound to the old 4.1x. It is much less coloured and it has a more dynamic sound but has not lost that natural organic sound. I think it has moved up the audio scale and is likely to be more usable in a non AN systems. I am using it with Pass Labs amplifiers. Yes SS in an AN system.

I heard the MSB DAC with MSB amps and the new Tannoys and it had a superb soundstage with a tremendously natural sound. Hearing Kraftwerk live was superb but different. I would say the MSB is likely to be the more transparent and had a more sparkling top end but it did not quite match the totally natural sound of the AN.

A listen is mandatory (if possible). The Kassandra looks interesting.

i'll take the MSB Select II for natural sound compared to any digital including AN I've heard at shows. but we all have a right to our opinion.
 

George47

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2018
7
2
108
Was this is in the UK? If so, did he at that time have the kuzma analog set up and the AR 250 SE amps, because they were both way superior in that tannoy system

Yes, it was at the Hifi Wam Show at Harrogate. They were using the MSB DAC (not sure which one), MSB amplifier and the Tannoy Cheviots. The Ardens' bass was too much for the room. Not sure if there was a Kuzma TT there but there was not an ARC 250SE. Sounded great.
 

George47

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2018
7
2
108
I have heard an AN UK 4.1x as Cheshire audio show back in 2016, I presume it was as your 4.1x? It sounded similar to my recollections on the DAC 5 Special, easy going sound, but again lacked world class dynamics or transparency. I think AN UK have developed some new ceramic resistors? Not sure what else has changed in the 4.1x? I have a buddy who had the DAC 5 Signature built up in 2015, and that was flawed by the Kassandra on a home demo. He then sold all his AN gear to go Aries Cerat after that. He also had the M8, some level 5 AN-Es and a Jinro power amp I think it was. Anyway, all AN level 5. It was no contest....

This 4.1x was worked on by AN during 2017 and Kevin received it mid-2017. The details of the changed components are in his review in Hifi Critic. I think the capacitors are the Rubycon Kaisei. The resistors are non-magnetic tantalum resistors. It apparently took some time to get the right balance of sound/components and early version were not as dynamic. I am not a super fan of the 5.1 as it can sound a little like a tone control. A very nice tone control but it still has a character. Maybe they will change the components in the 5.1 to the newer capacitors and resistors. Of course, the new Black Gates would be ideal.
 

Pb Blimp

Well-Known Member
Oct 30, 2017
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I have heard both DACs but in different systems and rooms.

I agree with a lot of what has been written about the Audionote but there have been changes. In Hifi Critic Kevin Fiske reviewed the latest AN4.1x with the new 'balanced' sound using the latest and better components from AN. I have that reviewed item here and it has a different sound to the old 4.1x. It is much less coloured and it has a more dynamic sound but has not lost that natural organic sound. I think it has moved up the audio scale and is likely to be more usable in a non AN systems. I am using it with Pass Labs amplifiers. Yes SS in an AN system.

I heard the MSB DAC with MSB amps and the new Tannoys and it had a superb soundstage with a tremendously natural sound. Hearing Kraftwerk live was superb but different. I would say the MSB is likely to be the more transparent and had a more sparkling top end but it did not quite match the totally natural sound of the AN.

A listen is mandatory (if possible). The Kassandra looks interesting.

i'll take the MSB Select II for natural sound compared to any digital including AN I've heard at shows. but we all have a right to our opinion.

I am obviously biased but must agree with Mike on this one (although I have not heard the AN except shows). IMO, what sets the MSB (Reference in my case) apart is, in fact, how natural and uncolored the sound is across the entire frequency spectrum as opposed to the limits of tube dacs I have heard. This is a gross generalization, but in my experience they can have very nice second harmonic distortion (pretty much at frequencies of choice based on tube selection) which can be very sexy, euphonic, romantic (take your pick), but this distortion gets old to me after a while. Noise floor is their other downfall. (As a caveat, I tend to like a a transistor in the gain section of a tube source.) The best way to put my take on the MSB is it sound like good analog with virtually no noise floor.
 

BruceD

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Dec 13, 2013
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Some interesting comments--I've owned both the AN Dac 5 and 4.1X Bal--both superb DACs --extremely quiet noise floor with smooth fluid Playback slightly "soft" sounding

full bodied but slight lacking in dynamic attack.

Very listenable and they tend to "smooth over" the digital "artefacts" that can prove unpleasant.

I agree though tad overpriced-and could do with a better metal fabricator:b

BruceD
 

Legolas

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Dec 27, 2015
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I am obviously biased but must agree with Mike on this one (although I have not heard the AN except shows). IMO, what sets the MSB (Reference in my case) apart is, in fact, how natural and uncolored the sound is across the entire frequency spectrum as opposed to the limits of tube dacs I have heard. This is a gross generalization, but in my experience they can have very nice second harmonic distortion (pretty much at frequencies of choice based on tube selection) which can be very sexy, euphonic, romantic (take your pick), but this distortion gets old to me after a while. Noise floor is their other downfall. (As a caveat, I tend to like a a transistor in the gain section of a tube source.) The best way to put my take on the MSB is it sound like good analog with virtually no noise floor.

I am sure you are correct. However, I was at Munich Hi-end and the MSB room was bad, really lack lustre. The speakers and amp may be at play. It was using the Reference DAC combo with power supply. It sounded so dull and anaemic, I just don't understand why MSB would pair it with those products. It was not a good match IMO. Did anyone else hear it? :confused:
 

asiufy

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I did. *I* wouldn't buy an MSB DAC if all my exposure to it was that room.
 

microstrip

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I am sure you are correct. However, I was at Munich Hi-end and the MSB room was bad, really lack lustre. The speakers and amp may be at play. It was using the Reference DAC combo with power supply. It sounded so dull and anaemic, I just don't understand why MSB would pair it with those products. It was not a good match IMO. Did anyone else hear it? :confused:

I did. *I* wouldn't buy an MSB DAC if all my exposure to it was that room.

Good. Now I have two posts to quote every time someone tells me he does not like the DCS Vivaldi based on his show auditions. :D
 

Pb Blimp

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Oct 30, 2017
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I am sure you are correct. However, I was at Munich Hi-end and the MSB room was bad, really lack lustre. The speakers and amp may be at play. It was using the Reference DAC combo with power supply. It sounded so dull and anaemic, I just don't understand why MSB would pair it with those products. It was not a good match IMO. Did anyone else hear it? :confused:

Interesting... May I ask a bit more about the system at Munich (speakers, amps, cables etcs.)? Did you hear the system with a source other than the MSB? If so did it demonstrate similar dullness?
 

Al M.

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Good. Now I have two posts to quote every time someone tells me he does not like the DCS Vivaldi based on his show auditions. :D

Hehe ;)
 

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