Just read the Fremer review of the Ypsilon Hyperion...interesting

morricab · Apr 4, 2018

First, I am really surprised that no one is talking about this rather interesting amp on this forum...is it just because no one has heard it? I heard it in Munich and thought it quite good.

What I find most interesting is that in many ways it measures like a good SET, with a linear (Log/log scale) increase in distortion with increasing power. Also, that it has a slight upturn in distortion in the bass...not sure where that is coming from (interstage transformer perhaps?) as it doesn't have an ouptut transformers being SS output. The distortion content is largely monotonic, like a good SET and the IMD spectrum also looked similar to a lot of SETs. Clearly the amp is free or nearly free from negative feedback. It reminds me of a SoundStage measurment of the Monarchy Audio M250 monos, which were also feedback free hybrids that had quite similar measurments (but were less than 1/10th the price).

I also think that Mr. Fremer's remarks about this amp show that in many ways it shows up his Dartzeels giving him some of the best sound he has ever heard in his system.

Thoughts?

GMKF · Apr 4, 2018

I read the whole review and put it on my "to-check-out-list" for the Munich show.
Then I looked at the measurements and scratched my head. And had a laugh after I read the comment of Mr. John Atkinson...
After that I had a look at the "old" Wavac measurements and summarized "could be worse".
I like the idea of "voicing" electronics though. For example, if someone has achieved technically " close to perfect" measurements (like Boulder), it could also considered to be "voiced" to "neutrality"

bonzo75 · Apr 4, 2018

JA has been quite harsh, saying he would not recommend it based on the measurements. https://www.stereophile.com/content...perion-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements

microstrip · Apr 4, 2018

bonzo75 said:
JA has been quite harsh, saying he would not recommend it based on the measurements. https://www.stereophile.com/content...perion-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements

It is meaningless for me. I do not expect recommendations from reviewers, just information and opinions. Many great tube amplifiers have measurements that are much poorer looking. It looks like he needed to counterbalance MF enthusiasm.

cjfrbw · Apr 4, 2018

Another day, another anointing.

I have a First Watt M2, which is about as simple topology as can be imagined: a passive transformer voltage amplifier with a single pair of push pull MOSFET per channel in current gain mode and no negative feedback at any stage. Within it's power envelope, it's distortion curve looks quite similar to the JA measured Hyperion, although it tends towards third harmonics rather than second. When I have used it, I drive it with a directly heated triode preamp.

I love tubes, but I have to say the First Watt M2 (after a thorough run in and warmup) sounds absolutely fantastic. 25 watts class A@8 ohms/40 watts@ 4 ohms, I can't get it to show any sign of strain at any reasonable listening level in my room (19x14 feet with dogleg and high ceiling in the rear) with 89 db or so efficient panels. It has a very whole-istic and organic character.

My speculator speculates that the brain is able to compensate better for the inherent distortion of the output device, rather than whatever sonic anomalies are introduced by feedback. It's probably why some high end amps have a feedback switch, where you can switch the feedback in and out. Even with higher nominal distortion, it seems most listeners prefer the no feedback settings.

morricab · Apr 5, 2018

bonzo75 said:
JA has been quite harsh, saying he would not recommend it based on the measurements. https://www.stereophile.com/content...perion-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements

Yes, I found this rather inconsistent behavior from JA. It is clear from the design at least the coarse outline of what to expect as it is inherent in the topology. If it were designed by Soulution and measured so then that is one thing this is an open loop design (no feedback), so from experience with measuring SETs and other low/no feedback designs he should not be surprised.

morricab · Apr 5, 2018

cjfrbw said:
Another day, another anointing.

I have a First Watt M2, which is about as simple topology as can be imagined: a passive transformer voltage amplifier with a single pair of push pull MOSFET per channel in current gain mode and no negative feedback at any stage. Within it's power envelope, it's distortion curve looks quite similar to the JA measured Hyperion, although it tends towards third harmonics rather than second. When I have used it, I drive it with a directly heated triode preamp.

I love tubes, but I have to say the First Watt M2 (after a thorough run in and warmup) sounds absolutely fantastic. 25 watts class A@8 ohms/40 watts@ 4 ohms, I can't get it to show any sign of strain at any reasonable listening level in my room (19x14 feet with dogleg and high ceiling in the rear) with 89 db or so efficient panels. It has a very whole-istic and organic character.

My speculator speculates that the brain is able to compensate better for the inherent distortion of the output device, rather than whatever sonic anomalies are introduced by feedback. It's probably why some high end amps have a feedback switch, where you can switch the feedback in and out. Even with higher nominal distortion, it seems most listeners prefer the no feedback settings.

It has been demstrated that tolerance for distortion drops very rapidly as the order of the harmonic distortion increases. Audibility also increases as masking is not effectively blanking the distortion at high orders. Feedback trades a highish level of innocuous low order for lower amounts of sonically damaging high order...among other issues.

cjfrbw · Apr 5, 2018

The great anointer seems to have done a nice preliminary job of tamping the funeral soil around the big Darts in favor of the Hyperion. I guess the high end fashionistas will be shuddering and scrambling to the exits to sell and exalt the new icon.

The First Watt M2 is in the realm of the DIY crowd, now, being out of production and being released by Nelson Pass to them. There were a couple of horn guys who replaced their SETs with samples of M2 without regret. However, I would not compare the sound of M2 with an SET, in spite of the nature of the distortion curve. It is decent enough to be compared with itself without borrowed attributions.

KeithR · Apr 5, 2018

morricab said:
Yes, I found this rather inconsistent behavior from JA. It is clear from the design at least the coarse outline of what to expect as it is inherent in the topology. If it were designed by Soulution and measured so then that is one thing this is an open loop design (no feedback), so from experience with measuring SETs and other low/no feedback designs he should not be surprised.

i didn't find it as that. the amp had issues with FR, impedance, output, distortion (in the bass), IMD, etc. even as a SS amp without an OPT. he found it a flawed amp (for 93k no less) that may work in systems but likely can't in many - ie. no recommendation.

at least with a SET amp you know you want to minimize watt usage - with a SS amp that claims almost 400 watts into 8 ohms, very different.

Al M. · Apr 5, 2018

morricab said:
Yes, I found this rather inconsistent behavior from JA. It is clear from the design at least the coarse outline of what to expect as it is inherent in the topology. If it were designed by Soulution and measured so then that is one thing this is an open loop design (no feedback), so from experience with measuring SETs and other low/no feedback designs he should not be surprised.

Inconsistent behavior it is indeed. JA also measured the Schiit Yggdrasil DAC (first generation) and bemoaned the 'bad' sine waves at -90 dB (or so). Funny that at Superbestaudiofriends.org they figured out that he lauded the corresponding MSB analog DAC measurements -- while they were worse!

He just had a beef with the fact that the Yggdrasil DAC is 'merely' a 20-bit DAC, while it is known and designer Mike Moffat pointed out, that no DAC has an effective resolution of greater than 20 bit at its analog output (due to the noise floor inherent to power supplies etc.). 24 bit is useful for mastering/editing, but that resolution doesn't exist in an actual audio system (it would have to have a dynamic range of 144 dB, the effective dynamic range of systems typically seems to be around 80 dB or so). That's why JA was in a bad mood apparently, because of the lack of nominal 24-bit resolution. He called the 20-bit Yggdrasil 'obsolete', in a subsequent Facebook post IIRC.

In response Schiit designed a funny ad which they posted in Stereophile, yup

(if you magnify you can read the print at the bottom) :

https://cdn.head-fi.org/a/9656619.jpg

microstrip · Apr 5, 2018

Al M. said:
(...) He just had a beef with the fact that the Yggdrasil DAC is 'merely' a 20-bit DAC, while it is known and designer Mike Moffat pointed out, that no DAC has an effective resolution of greater than 20 bit at its analog output (due to the noise floor inherent to power supplies etc.). 24 bit is useful for mastering/editing, but that resolution doesn't exist in an actual audio system (it would have to have a dynamic range of 144 dB, the effective dynamic range of systems typically seems to be around 80 dB or so). (...)

IMHO this is an open subject. Most of us claim that we can listen to sound effects of cables and many tweaks that are much bellow the level of 20 bits ...

cjfrbw · Apr 5, 2018

The Fremer poetics vs. Atkinson objectivist measuring guy aren't that unusual, though they tend to be more when single ended tubed units are reviewed.

It seems it has been known for a long time that you can create a solid state amplifier with lots of negative feedback that measures immaculately but sounds boring and icky. Most of the SS designers try a light touch on the negative feedback, restricting it to local in the driver stages as much as possible, and seldom global negative feedback from the output stage.

In another interesting First Watt model recently, the F7, Nelson Pass rather mischievously decided the amp was nice sounding, but boring, and added some global POSITIVE current feedback back to the input driver's negative feedback to give it some personality and improve it's operating parameters.

Al M. · Apr 5, 2018

microstrip said:
IMHO this is an open subject. Most of us claim that we can listen to sound effects of cables and many tweaks that are much bellow the level of 20 bits ...

Be that as it may, it is a fact that no DAC has more, or at best not significantly more, than 20 bit resolution at its analog output, even if it processes 24 bit data. There is no DAC of actual 24 bit resolution. I am not sure if it is even technically possible to build one, given the inherent noise of even the quietest power supplies, among others.

cjfrbw · Apr 5, 2018

I found the "comments" section of the review to be the most interesting part, addressing JA's measurements and the commentary on transfer functions and modes of distortion. It was certainly a lot more interesting than Fremer's habitual pandering to expensive power cords and cables, which even in a subjective review, I find a bit fulsome.

awsmone · Apr 5, 2018

cjfrbw said:
I found the "comments" section of the review to be the most interesting part, addressing JA's measurements and the commentary on transfer functions and modes of distortion. It was certainly a lot more interesting than Fremer's habitual pandering to expensive power cords and cables, which even in a subjective review, I find a bit fulsome.

The comment section was very interesting indeed

I was wondering whether JA listened to the amplifier?

Often when Stereophile has such criticisms they subject it to further review, especially from such a well respected maker, like with the M28

I must admit if there is no negative feedback in the SS amplifier, your going to get some interesting results so it’s hardly surprising , I think it would be interesting if we new JA views on the listening, he describes it as tailored, but is removing something tailoring it ie NF, or is adding NF tailoring it to make it “neutral”.

microstrip · Apr 5, 2018

Al M. said:
Be that as it may, it is a fact that no DAC has more, or at best not significantly more, than 20 bit resolution at its analog output, even if it processes 24 bit data. There is no DAC of actual 24 bit resolution. I am not sure if it is even technically possible to build one, given the inherent noise of even the quietest power supplies, among others.

There is a lot more than resolution in a DAC. The available measurements clearly show that some 24 bit DACs have some better measurements than 20 DACs. In this case JA simply warned about it.

BTW, the question is not being a true 24 bit DAC. If a 24 bit DAC had a resolution of 21 bit, it would be enough to outclass 20 bit DACs in the measurement game ...

Al M. · Apr 5, 2018

cjfrbw said:
It was certainly a lot more interesting than Fremer's habitual pandering to expensive power cords [...]

The component list in my system thread reads when it comes to power chords:

Power chords:
stock or thicker version of regular power chord (Tripp Lite 14 AWG chord, $ 16)

microstrip · Apr 5, 2018

Al M. said:
The component list in my system thread reads when it comes to power chords:

Power chords:
stock or thicker version of regular power chord (Tripp Lite 14 AWG chord, $ 16)

Why a thicker version of the regular power cord? Did you notice any improvement?

twitch · Apr 5, 2018

Fremer ........yawn ........

awsmone · Apr 5, 2018

This thread seems to be diverging from amplifier measurements to power cords and dacs, not sure how we got onto that.

Personally I think MF comments about PCs was perfectly reasonable, and consistent with my own observations, having said that, some manufacturers insist their equipment is voiced for their PCs, MF pointed out, though theyYpsilon Hyperion used a 20A IEC they didn’t provide a pc with it and he used his own

As he owned musical fidelity tri vista which used those 20A IEC, like AR, I assume he had these lying around as I still do and used them.

Just read the Fremer review of the Ypsilon Hyperion...interesting

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