Best music software?

EuroDriver · Jun 25, 2018

Oh yeah, one more detail, the server has to be completely powered down and and unplugged from the wall and any other components when making the comparison, otherwise its noise will invalidate the results.

Hi barrows

I have been an avid reader of your posts on Computer Audiophile for many years, and have been following your work together with Jesus at Sonore with great interest.

Your observation which I quote above is quite consistent with our observations at several SGM client locations except the SGM being powered on is positive !

We have had a pretty hilarious experience of the SQ of a home theatre system being dramatically improved by just having the SGM plugged into the the wall outlet and powered up, no signal or data connection to the home theatre system.

What I have learnt in my travels in the high end audio world is that we must take seriously the full spectrum of data points, there is more going on we than we used to think.

barrows · Jun 25, 2018

ED:

"What I have learnt in my travels in the high end audio world is that we must take seriously the full spectrum of data points, there is more going on we than we used to think."

At least I can agree with the above! But, as a technical person I have pretty good understanding of what is going on with Computer Audio, there is not nearly as much "magic" going on as some people care to speculate about.
I would like to see the spectrum analysis of the AC line in the case which you illustrate above. Sounds like the SGM is adding some harmonics/noise to the line which are producing euphonic (although inaccurate) colorations in the audio system. But the only way to know for sure is to measure. Without measuring the results, the "engineering" is akin to playing darts blind folded.

Interestingly, power conditioning products from both Synergistic Research and Nordost appear to operate this way (I have a Synergistic Powercell UEF here which does this).

EuroDriver · Jun 25, 2018

barrows said:
ED:

"What I have learnt in my travels in the high end audio world is that we must take seriously the full spectrum of data points, there is more going on we than we used to think."

At least I can agree with the above! But, as a technical person I have pretty good understanding of what is going on with Computer Audio, there is not nearly as much "magic" going on as some people care to speculate about.
I would like to see the spectrum analysis of the AC line in the case which you illustrate above. Sounds like the SGM is adding some harmonics/noise to the line which are producing euphonic (although inaccurate) colorations in the audio system. But the only way to know for sure is to measure. Without measuring the results, the "engineering" is akin to playing darts blind folded.

Interestingly, power conditioning products from both Synergistic Research and Nordost appear to operate this way (I have a Synergistic Powercell UEF here which does this).

If it sounds good, it is harmonics, if it sounds bad it is noise, LoL

Management of RF emissions is certainly an important part of getting good sound from a system

sbo6 · Jun 25, 2018

barrows said:
ED:

"What I have learnt in my travels in the high end audio world is that we must take seriously the full spectrum of data points, there is more going on we than we used to think."

At least I can agree with the above! But, as a technical person I have pretty good understanding of what is going on with Computer Audio, there is not nearly as much "magic" going on as some people care to speculate about.

Barrows,
Ahh, so now you come around once a peer comments. I'll make my point again, which holds true - As in most things in audio and especially digital almost nothing is definite. The more we know the more we realize we don't (or didn't) know. ;-)

barrows · Jun 26, 2018

"Barrows,
Ahh, so now you come around once a peer comments. I'll make my point again, which holds true - As in most things in audio and especially digital almost nothing is definite. The more we know the more we realize we don't (or didn't) know. ;-)"

Not sure what you are saying here? I am certainly not in (general) agreement with ED. While of course there will always be things we do not know, that fact does not change the actual facts regarding the things we do (or at least I) know. This is a very important distinction, as without making this distinction we know nothing, and then we are back at product design being a totally a case of the blinded player throwing darts, and "magical" music servers.
What I know is that a product with a full on commercial mother board, with enough processing power to run HQP and oversample to DSD 512, has many times the noise signature of a small, purpose built for audio, Ethernet Renderer like a Sonore Rendu.

sbo6 · Jun 27, 2018

barrows said:
"Barrows,
Ahh, so now you come around once a peer comments. I'll make my point again, which holds true - As in most things in audio and especially digital almost nothing is definite. The more we know the more we realize we don't (or didn't) know. ;-)"

Not sure what you are saying here? I am certainly not in (general) agreement with ED. While of course there will always be things we do not know, that fact does not change the actual facts regarding the things we do (or at least I) know. This is a very important distinction, as without making this distinction we know nothing, and then we are back at product design being a totally a case of the blinded player throwing darts, and "magical" music servers.
What I know is that a product with a full on commercial mother board, with enough processing power to run HQP and oversample to DSD 512, has many times the noise signature of a small, purpose built for audio, Ethernet Renderer like a Sonore Rendu.

Got it, but that doesn't mean the noise cannot be reduced such as to provide exemplary sound such as the SGM, agreed? I think your statement is more about value - add / $ versus ultimate sonics.

barrows · Jun 28, 2018

"Got it, but that doesn't mean the noise cannot be reduced such as to provide exemplary sound such as the SGM, agreed? I think your statement is more about value - add / $ versus ultimate sonics."

The inherent problem with any "server" connected directly to the music system (DAC) remains: Music Servers produce multiples more noise than what is produced by a well designed and implemented Ethernet Renderer. This noise propagates throughout the system via the AC connection, the output connection (USB cable, etc) and through airborne RF. While application of very extreme design techniques can mitigate some of this noise, there is no way to mitigate nearly enough of it. By using an Ethernet Renderer you remove this noise source from the audio system, and the result is improved sonics. The supposition that if one designs a music server well enough the noise will be gone is just not accurate. Things like filters are not absolute, not even close, they just remove a small portion of this noise, in a limited bandwidth.

sbo6 · Jun 28, 2018

barrows said:
"By using an Ethernet Renderer you remove this noise source from the audio system, and the result is improved sonics. The supposition that if one designs a music server well enough the noise will be gone is just not accurate. Things like filters are not absolute, not even close, they just remove a small portion of this noise, in a limited bandwidth."

Contrast with your earlier statement - " I would not expect an ultra Rendu to outperform a (what, ten times higher cost?) SGM server without good set up and an equal playing field in terms of playback software, etc... With the SGM the set up is pretty much already done."

So, which is it? renderer is better contingent on setup or renderer is always better because a MB has magnitudes higher noise or renderer is not better because cost matters? I vote for D - either implementation can be excellent albeit the MB route is less cost effective since it produces higher levels of noise with DC -> DC conversion and other on board cheapo components, etc...

barrows · Jun 28, 2018

sbo6: Good set up is always going to matter, i mention it here because if one is doing comparisons, it is easy to not have good enough set up with the Renderer approach (as there are a lot of variables).
There is no absolute answer to anything, really, but the Ethernet Renderer approach has performance advantages which are huge, and no real disadvantages. After all, this is why Jussi (HQP developer) introduced the NAA approach to using HQP in the first place, he realized that having a very powerful computer (needed for HQP's very processing intensive oversampling algorithms) directly connected to the audio system was a problem.

Legolas · Jun 28, 2018

barrows said:
sbo6: Good set up is always going to matter, i mention it here because if one is doing comparisons, it is easy to not have good enough set up with the Renderer approach (as there are a lot of variables).
There is no absolute answer to anything, really, but the Ethernet Renderer approach has performance advantages which are huge, and no real disadvantages. After all, this is why Jussi (HQP developer) introduced the NAA approach to using HQP in the first place, he realized that having a very powerful computer (needed for HQP's very processing intensive oversampling algorithms) directly connected to the audio system was a problem.

Can I ask to be a beta tester for WBF? If you can send me a Micro Rendu or the better Rendu unit, I will do a demo with my system and if I like what I am hearing, will post positive responses. If it is no better than my current source, I will return it to you, no questions asked.

My source is: Mac Mini optimised with LPS 12v supply, Uptone Audio MMK board, SSD, 8 meg, Firewire 4 gig ext drive, outputting 44.1 from AIFs or 44.1 and 96 from Roon Masters (in Roon) via USB to Aries Cerat Kassandra REF II NOS DAC. BTW I also have a Rednet Ethernet DAW which outputs SPDIF reclocked to my DAC, but straight USB to the Kassandra sounds better in this case. I don't upsample, no messing with the data, straight through.

`If what you are saying is correct, your product should blow my Mac Mini away.

I can supply my address in the UK for the demo on PM.

barrows · Jun 28, 2018

astrostar59 said:
Can I ask to be a beta tester for WBF? If you can send me a Micro Rendu or the better Rendu unit, I will do a demo with my system and if I like what I am hearing, will post positive responses. If it is no better than my current source, I will return it to you, no questions asked.

My source is: Mac Mini optimised with LPS 12v supply, Uptone Audio MMK board, SSD, 8 meg, Firewire 4 gig ext drive, outputting 44.1 from AIFs or 44.1 and 96 from Roon Masters (in Roon) via USB to Aries Cerat Kassandra REF II NOS DAC. BTW I also have a Rednet Ethernet DAW which outputs SPDIF reclocked to my DAC, but straight USB to the Kassandra sounds better in this case. I don't upsample, no messing with the data, straight through.

`If what you are saying is correct, your product should blow my Mac Mini away.

I can supply my address in the UK for the demo on PM.

As you are in the UK any inquiries RE Sonore products should go through our UK representation:

http://www.vortexbox.co.uk/microRendu_USB_Audio_source_-_Stock_due_wc_22nd_Aug/p317978_8336953.aspx

Additionally, we already know what the result of a Mini such as yours vs. a microRendu is. But if you are interested in a low cost demo, I would expect there to be some microRendus on the used market at very affordable prices. My one advice is to remember that the microRendu is the entry level product, and we have two models with better performance than it, but still, I am confident that a well set up microRendu with good power supply will easily outperform your Mini. BTW, I use a Mini running Audirvana Plus to serve up files to my network (and the Signature Rendu SE in my system).

Legolas · Jun 28, 2018

barrows said:
As you are in the UK any inquiries RE Sonore products should go through our UK representation:

http://www.vortexbox.co.uk/microRendu_USB_Audio_source_-_Stock_due_wc_22nd_Aug/p317978_8336953.aspx

Additionally, we already know what the result of a Mini such as yours vs. a microRendu is. But if you are interested in a low cost demo, I would expect there to be some microRendus on the used market at very affordable prices. My one advice is to remember that the microRendu is the entry level product, and we have two models with better performance than it, but still, I am confident that a well set up microRendu with good power supply will easily outperform your Mini. BTW, I use a Mini running Audirvana Plus to serve up files to my network (and the Signature Rendu SE in my system).

You say this but I am challenging you to it. Send me a Micro Rendu and I'll post my findings. My Mac Mini is 12v converted. Not open to the challenge?

barrows · Jun 28, 2018

"You say this but I am challenging you to it. Send me a Micro Rendu and I'll post my findings. My Mac Mini is 12v converted. Not open to the challenge?'

Tell you what, i would like to hear your Kassandra in my system, go ahead and send me that and I'll send you Signature Rendu SE to test...

Legolas · Jun 29, 2018

barrows said:
"You say this but I am challenging you to it. Send me a Micro Rendu and I'll post my findings. My Mac Mini is 12v converted. Not open to the challenge?'

Tell you what, i would like to hear your Kassandra in my system, go ahead and send me that and I'll send you Signature Rendu SE to test...

I see, you are not confident....

Alrainbow · Jun 29, 2018

Guys i thought the topic was best music software ?
For me this is Roon into hq player. I don’t upsample so one machine can run both
Non GUI and hq is better on one machine by a margin
Two pc setup sounds better still but that’s getting off the topic ?
As for NAA Devices like all of Sanore devices they all use Linux and only work on usb DACs that have a Linux usb driver. When I had my usb dac I could not use my HB with it
Does the sanore devices use network isolation ? If so by chip Ron
Iso transformer?
Reg noise of faster pc and the many drives , ram and the rest a Linux naa helps a bit but does solve most of it nor does it make a poor setup sound great. It does give a way to have your severs away from your room.

Legolas · Jun 29, 2018

Alrainbow said:
Guys i thought the topic was best music software ?
For me this is Roon into hq player. I don’t upsample so one machine can run both
Non GUI and hq is better on one machine by a margin
Two pc setup sounds better still but that’s getting off the topic ?
As for NAA Devices like all of Sanore devices they all use Linux and only work on usb DACs that have a Linux usb driver. When I had my usb dac I could not use my HB with it
Does the sanore devices use network isolation ? If so by chip Ron
Iso transformer?
Reg noise of faster pc and the many drives , ram and the rest a Linux naa helps a bit but does solve most of it nor does it make a poor setup sound great. It does give a way to have your severs away from your room.

Interesting Alrainbow. So if I was to try that, would it be My Mac Mini (in my case) with Roon serving the library BUT using HQ player as the player as I can use HQ player inside Roon? Does that sound the correct route? I too don't upsample, play resident rate.:b

Alrainbow · Jun 29, 2018

Yes and he better pc runs roon if you don’t upsample.
Room streams to second pc only running hq player
Set settings in hq player for pcm none / none
Meaning no sampling settings it’s a pass though for pcm
Dsd do the same from he dsm drop down menu
Also adjust volumes to 0 dB in both pcm and dsd
Ask any questions you wish

Legolas · Jun 29, 2018

Alrainbow said:
Yes and he better pc runs roon if you don’t upsample.
Room streams to second pc only running hq player
Set settings in hq player for pcm none / none
Meaning no sampling settings it’s a pass though for pcm
Dsd do the same from he dsm drop down menu
Also adjust volumes to 0 dB in both pcm and dsd
Ask any questions you wish

Thanks Alrainbow

So to re-check, I go buy HQ player, use that inside Roon (not Roon server) and use HQ player for playing the music instead of built in Roon player?

I recently found Roon has got better. I tried it late 2017, and Audirvana+ 3 was still better, more transparent. But Roon early 2018 build got better, and sound bang on the same as A+ BUT crucially rids the last vestiges of coarseness to the treble and female vocals without loosing details. So I am a Roon convert now.

Let me know Al.

barrows · Jun 29, 2018

astrostar59 said:
I see, you are not confident....

Hahahaha! This product earned "Product of the Year" award, and has many very, very positive reviews from professional reviewers. There is no misunderstanding to what it is capable of.

Alrainbow · Jun 29, 2018

There is a misunderstanding room sever not room GUI
Use room to pick hq player as an end point or output.
This Is best sound and while roon has gotten better so has hq player
No ona two pc setup it’s even better but still must be roon sever
Roon GUI is too bloated. Now if you choose to use a sanore there is no harm and it may be even better
I also recomend a net work isolator like

En http://www.emosystems.com/product/en-30/
This isolates your network ina true manor no chipset just a transformer

Best music software?

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