Why so expensive to overcome limitations of Electrostats? Why so few speakers beat ol' Quad 57?

microstrip

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Could it depend on the arm, as someone else just old me? I easily measure 0.1g to 0.2g VTF changes in mine, with 2-3mm arm adjustments, (...)

(...) But to me, a 4% change in VTF (tracking at 2.3g, variance of 0.1g) is significant (not sure where you got the 10%, micro, but it doesn't really matter). (...)

Your referred 0.1 to 0.2g and no number for VTF - I assumed 2g for a .2g variation - it makes 10%. But it does not matter, I am not dealing with your private arguing - just analyzing the numbers and trying to understand the situation and be of haelp. Again IMHO probably something is wrong with your arm or setup, and these results can not be used for comparison with typical arms.


.
 

ack

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The topic of the thread was derailed when a post mentioned three audiophile misconceptions. I responded to that post. My findings may not be published, but I did collect data. Al is a scientist. His mind is open to learning about this topic. He and I discussed the data and listening impressions to support it. I refer you to this post: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?23930-VTA-and-VTF-How-one-affects-the-other

The reason VTF may change is simple physics: VTF is the result of the arm's center of gravity being ever so slightly off center towards the cartridge. As you raise the arm, that center of gravity moves just a tiny bit forward, because of the arm's higher tilt; as you lower, it moves back. Consequently, the longer the arm, the lower the fluctuations for the same amount of vertical offset (raising or lowering the arm). As to how important even very small fluctuations can be, Al told me last week that you guys were trying to figure out best VTF at Ian's recently, and that eventually a "small 1/8th of a turn" of the counterweight really locked things in. I'll let you calculate the micrograms involved in that. To me, this was no surprise, as I've always thought and heard that tiny VTF adjustments can make a huge difference; perhaps we can all appreciate Graham's attempt at solving even that small of a problem. And finally, I never addressed Al, and maybe he should just get into analog to be able to have a meaningful conversation.
 
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DaveyF

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The reason VTF may change is simple physics: VTF is the result of the arm's center of gravity being ever so slightly off center towards the cartridge. As you raise the arm, that center of gravity moves just a tiny bit forward, because of the arm's higher tilt; as you lower, it moves back. Consequently, the longer the arm, the lower the fluctuations for the same amount of vertical offset (raising or lowering the arm). As to how important even very small fluctuations can be, Al told me last week that you guys were trying to figure out best VTF at Ian's recently, and that eventually a "small 1/8th of a turn" of the counterweight really locked things in. I'll let you calculate the micrograms involved in that. To me, this was no surprise, as I've always thought and heard that tiny VTF adjustments can make a huge difference; perhaps we can all appreciate Graham's attempt at solving even that small of a problem. And finally, I never addressed Al, and maybe he should just get into analog to be able to have a meaningful conversation.

Personally I think analog is a much more difficult medium to get right than digital. Anyone who disagrees really hasn't got a lot of analog experience IMHO. Ack, I agree 100% with your post....in cartridge set up, the minutest details will pay big dividends, which makes sense if you think about the tiny grooves and signals engraved in those grooves.
 

microstrip

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Personally I think analog is a much more difficult medium to get right than digital. Anyone who disagrees really hasn't got a lot of analog experience IMHO. Ack, I agree 100% with your post....in cartridge set up, the minutest details will pay big dividends, which makes sense if you think about the tiny grooves and signals engraved in those grooves.

Get a parallel tracking tonearm such as the Forsell and everything becomes simple! Or even a SME.

IMHO people mystify analog setup - most of the time problems arise from unfriendly designed arm geometries, cartridges that have such bizarre shape that they are a nightmare to align, or even users trying to use tonearms in a different way from their designers intentions.

But you have a point - analog setup is harder than just switching filters in a DCS Vivaldi! :)
 

Al M.

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The reason VTF may change is simple physics: VTF is the result of the arm's center of gravity being ever so slightly off center towards the cartridge. As you raise the arm, that center of gravity moves just a tiny bit forward, because of the arm's higher tilt; as you lower, it moves back. Consequently, the longer the arm, the lower the fluctuations for the same amount of vertical offset (raising or lowering the arm). As to how important even very small fluctuations can be, Al told me last week that you guys were trying to figure out best VTF at Ian's recently, and that eventually a "small 1/8th of a turn" of the counterweight really locked things in. I'll let you calculate the micrograms involved in that. To me, this was no surprise, as I've always thought and heard that tiny VTF adjustments can make a huge difference; perhaps we can all appreciate Graham's attempt at solving even that small of a problem. And finally, I never addressed Al, and maybe he should just get into analog to be able to have a meaningful conversation.

So you say leave VTA (addressed by arm height adjustment) alone, because you don't want any changes in WTF.

Yet when you don't change arm height at different record thicknesses, VTF will change. On the other hand, if you compensate for a 1 mm thicker LP (going from a 110 g to a 200 g LP, for example) by raising the arm correspondingly by 1 mm as well, the VTF should remain the same.

Therefore, if you don't change arm height in order to adjust for VTA, you may actually incur a greater variance in VTF between LPs than if you do adjust VTA. At least, if you adjust VTA strictly just to compensate for different thicknesses of LPs.
 

microstrip

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The reason VTF may change is simple physics: VTF is the result of the arm's center of gravity being ever so slightly off center towards the cartridge. As you raise the arm, that center of gravity moves just a tiny bit forward, because of the arm's higher tilt; as you lower, it moves back. Consequently, the longer the arm, the lower the fluctuations for the same amount of vertical offset (raising or lowering the arm). As to how important even very small fluctuations can be, Al told me last week that you guys were trying to figure out best VTF at Ian's recently, and that eventually a "small 1/8th of a turn" of the counterweight really locked things in. I'll let you calculate the micrograms involved in that. To me, this was no surprise, as I've always thought and heard that tiny VTF adjustments can make a huge difference; perhaps we can all appreciate Graham's attempt at solving even that small of a problem. And finally, I never addressed Al, and maybe he should just get into analog to be able to have a meaningful conversation.

The center of gravity of a rigid body can not change, your romantic formulation of the situation is incorrect. What is happening is that the horizontal length of the tonearm varies when you raise it, and the tracking force decreases or increases very slightly depending on the current position - much less than you estimated because this relative variation is very small.

The center of gravity only moves if you move the counterweight or the cartridge.

I am very happy to learn from anyone about subjective effects of analog tonearm setup, but basic physics can not be changed!
 

DaveyF

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Get a parallel tracking tonearm such as the Forsell and everything becomes simple! Or even a SME.

IMHO people mystify analog setup - most of the time problems arise from unfriendly designed arm geometries, cartridges that have such bizarre shape that they are a nightmare to align, or even users trying to use tonearms in a different way from their designers intentions.

But you have a point - analog setup is harder than just switching filters in a DCS Vivaldi! :)


Strange example:eek:...the Forsell is an air bearing arm, is it not?? Which brings one a host of other problems that are going to need addressing. Not sure if Forsell addressed these issues, but an air bearing arm is frought with issues, IME. When i owned my Eminent Tech 2 arm it was really basically a nightmare. Sounded pretty good, but I never knew from one day to the next what the arm was doing...or what had gone out of adjustment, or what the damn pump was doing etc. etc.
 

ack

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So you say leave VTA (addressed by arm height adjustment) alone, because you don't want any changes in WTF.

Yet when you don't change arm height at different record thicknesses, VTF will change. On the other hand, if you compensate for a 1 mm thicker LP (going from a 110 g to a 200 g LP, for example) by raising the arm correspondingly by 1 mm as well, the VTF should remain the same.

Therefore, if you don't change arm height in order to adjust for VTA, you may actually incur a greater variance in VTF between LPs than if you do adjust VTA. At least, if you adjust VTA strictly just to compensate for different thicknesses of LPs.

It sounds like you now expect people to get a caliber and start measuring LP thicknesses, and compensate for each one by adjusting arm height. By extension, perhaps we audiophiles should go get equalizers and fix all recordings we have. Or maybe we should go get an MQA DAC which fixes digital. I have better things to do.

What I said in my original post is the misconception about SRA/VTA and tonal balance.
 

ack

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The center of gravity of a rigid body can not change, your romantic formulation of the situation is incorrect. What is happening is that the horizontal length of the tonearm varies when you raise it, and the tracking force decreases or increases very slightly depending on the current position - much less than you estimated because this relative variation is very small.

The center of gravity only moves if you move the counterweight or the cartridge.

I am very happy to learn from anyone about subjective effects of analog tonearm setup, but basic physics can not be changed!

Yes, you are correct, my explanation was too romantic :) More precisely of what you said, "What is happening is that the EFFECTIVE horizontal length of the tonearm varies when you raise it"
 

Al M.

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It sounds like you now expect people to get a caliber and start measuring LP thicknesses, and compensate for each one by adjusting arm height. By extension, perhaps we audiophiles should go get equalizers and fix all recordings we have. Or maybe we should go get an MQA DAC which fixes digital. I have better things to do.

What I said in my original post is the misconception about SRA/VTA and tonal balance.

So basically you do not contradict my assertion. That's all I need to know, thanks.
 

Al M.

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ack

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ack

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So basically you do not contradict my assertion. That's all I need to know, thanks.

I never did in any discussion when this silly topic comes up. What I keep consistently telling you guys is that YOU CAN'T just change one parameter without having to reset all others, exactly because even micro-adjustments can have a profound effect. So if anyone wants to adjust SRA/VTA for every record and accept concurrent VTF/azimuth/alignment changes - however large or small - be my guest; I ain't doing it, nor am I getting a caliper. Are we ready to move on now?
 
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Al M.

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Al M.

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I never did in any discussion when this silly topic comes up. What I keep consistently telling you guys is that YOU CAN'T just change one parameter without having to reset all others, exactly because even micro-adjustments can have a profound effect. So if anyone wants to adjust SRA/VTA for every record and accept concurrent VTF/azimuth/alignment changes - however large or small - be my guest; I ain't doing it, nor am I getting a caliper. Are we ready to move on now?

Well, you brought up the topic, didn't you.
 

ack

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Well, you brought up the topic, didn't you.

Wrong. You jumped in out of the blue, uninvited. Perhaps when you get your own analog, we can have a meaningful discussion. Enough of this ****.
 

Al M.

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Wrong. You jumped in out of the blue, uninvited. Enough of this ****.

Hmmm...

3) That SRA/VTA adjustments affect tonal balance: SRA/VTA affects nothing more than intermodulation distortion, and there are test records and tracks to show that; but the sheer fact that people raise and lower the arms to "fix" SRA ends up inevitably affecting VTF, which in turn is the one primarily affecting the tonal balance and the character of the sound, from soft to aggressive, depending on the suspension; not to mention that SRA/VTA adjustments will throw alignment and azimuth off as well. I was reviewing some old threads on audiogon a while ago about my A90, and it was fascinating to read that the same people would track the same cartridge with completely different VTFs in different systems - anywhere from 1.6g to 2.2x grams, if I remember correctly, and claim to have found the optimal settings for each of those systems... however, to me, all I see is that they were using VTF as a means to compensate for system deficiencies elsewhere, and I have to assume that intermodulation distortion would have been all over the place in those systems, based on my own experiences with this cartridge... just fascinating what we sometimes write on the internet.
 

PeterA

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Nonsensical questions. You use the test records to train your ear to IMD, so that you can then adjust your own records. So frustrating to deal with you sometimes, reminds me of the Isodamp discussions

I'm getting back to this discussion after a day or so. Ack, What do you mean by "adjust your own records"? I have been discussing adjusting tonearm height to better match SRA/VTA for different cutting angles and/or record thicknesses. I happen to listen for timing errors, or I suppose distortion, and the relationship between the fundamental of a note and its harmonics. I adjust the tonearm height accordingly to what sounds best for each LP and record the setting so that I can refer to it for later playings.

It is self evident that if you do not adjust the arm height for different LPs, then the overhang and VTF will change if the LP being played is of a different thickness (height) than the one used when originally aligning the cartridge. In other words, a thin LP will give a particular arm a different effective length and overhang as well as a different VTF than will a thicker LP, if the arm is at a fixed height. So just playing different thickness LPs will change the set up parameters of the arm/cartridge. One is simply finding the best compromise of the various parameter settings when he uses his alignment jig and sets up the cartridge.

The overhang, VTF, and SRA/VTA are set for a particular alignment jig at a particular height above the platter surface. How high is the platform on the scale when measuring VTF? Is it the same height as all of the records in one's collection? Surely not. I set my VTF by setting up the measuring platform of my scale at the same height as the average LP in my collection. That is a compromise, simply because some LPs are thicker or thinner than the average. When I play ones different from the average, VTF will be different unless I move the arm up or down to compensate. If one does adjust the height of the arm for different LP thicknesses, or more properly, for different original cutting angles, then at least the parameters of VTF and and SRA/VTA will remain the same. That is because as LP thickness goes up and one raises the arm by the same amount, the angle of the arm remains constant, so SRA/VTA remains constant, and VTF remains constant. Overhang should remain the same also if the angle of the arm remains constant.

I would argue that by not changing arm height, you are actually creating more intermodulation distortion every time you play an LP which is of a different thickness than your test LP which you used to set up your arm/cartridge by listening for intermodulation distortion. Of course, that is your choice, as it is inconvenient to constantly change the arm height for different LPs. But if one's goal is to reproduce accurately the information on the recording with as little distortion as possible, one would be well served by adjusting the height of his tonearm for different cutting angles and/or LP thicknesses. The proof is in the listening, as Al M. has experienced. One does not need to own a vinyl source to hear this and appreciate what it does for a more accurate rendition of the recording.

Tomorrow when Al visits you to hear your system, you should play for him a thin LP like Beethoven's Appassionata, D2D 45 rpm on RCA and a thicker reissue like Heifetz' "Kreutzer" Sonata or the Janaki Trio. Let us know if you hear the same lack of intermodulation distortion on each LP without changing the arm height. VTF, VTA, SRA, and overhang will all change when you play these two LPs and don't change the arm height, simply because they are different thicknesses, and the tonearm angle, relative to the surface of the LP, will necessarily be different for each one.
 

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