Why so expensive to overcome limitations of Electrostats? Why so few speakers beat ol' Quad 57?
- Thread starter caesar
- Start date
Yes. But I think your political leanings are fine
While that may be, I don't subscribe to every idea on 'my side' either.
. I guess I'm too 'centrist' for that. 
No, I do not think so. Some of us are realist enough to know that it is not possible, and know that being driven by an impossible dream is not a good strategy. Attempting live performances can be a good training, giving us good references that we select to recreate our version of the original music.
I am 100% certain that the sax I was listening to last night would be recognized as the 'real' thing by all contributors to this forum...and for that matter to all people. The interesting thing, that I am beginning to realize, is that not all of us are as 'tuned in' to the sound of the what the 'real' sounds like as others....in the same exactitude. Nothing wrong with that, just an observation.
Single instruments are misleading sources for life versus real comparisons. It was studied and documented since long.
Could it depend on the arm, as someone else just old me? I easily measure 0.1g to 0.2g VTF changes in mine, with 2-3mm arm adjustments, and I can show you next time we meet - these figures are not what I would call "hardly changes", but feel free to share your own experiences. Moreover, I find alignment way off. When I recently had to lower my arm 3mm, I had to readjust every parameter. Here's a little blurb from Fremer referring to Bob Graham that a friend just sent me [Bob's arms are the "neutral" kind]:
By contrast, my arm is a "stable" balance. So, "dead wrong"? Think about this.
See above
If you register such changes with a 2-3 mm arm adjustment it is a signal that probably something is wrong with your tonearm - physics says that a change of 2 mm height (less than 1% of the length of the tonearm) can not produce an almost 10% change in VTF. I have no experience with the JMW 10.5i but I would consider aspects such as wire tension any friction - if you measure it we must have a cause for it!
The point remains the same: unless your arm exhibits _NO_ VTF differences [NONE] with SRA/VTA adjustments, then you probably need to worry about it. But as always, feel free to disagree.
Microstrip cant believe you state something like this , if a good hifi system is actually capable of something believable its these kinds of music /instruments
Single instruments are misleading sources for life versus real comparisons. It was studied and documented since long.
I ll take that comparison anyday ,above cableswitching digital switching etc, studied and documented by who ?
A guy probably with a arm thick audiophile cable set or a refrigaratorsize powerconditioner ,
If live instruments is not what you re after then i dont know what is
Single instruments are misleading sources for life versus real comparisons. It was studied and documented since long.
I ll take that comparison anyday ,above cableswitching digital switching etc, studied and documented by who ?
A guy probably with a arm thick audiophile cable set or a refrigaratorsize powerconditioner ,
If live instruments is not what you re after then i dont know what is
Microstrip cant believe you state something like this , if a good hifi system is actually capable of something believable its these kinds of music /instruments
Single instruments are misleading sources for life versus real comparisons. It was studied and documented since long.
I ll take that comparison anyday ,above cableswitching digital switching etc, studied and documented by who ?
A guy probably with a arm thick audiophile cable set or a refrigaratorsize powerconditioner ,
If live instruments is not what you re after then i dont know what is
I am not really sure what you are referring to or if you are even responding to me, so I'll just throw something else out there that may be hard to believe, regarding unipivot arms like mine: the same 2-3mm adjustments can cause significant azimuth differences (~0.2dB if I remember correctly) - and that was one of the reasons I stabilized my arm with magnets.
I was responding to microstrips statement not you
Ps all those tiny differences audiophiles seem to hear not really interest me nor do I take it really serious
Ps all those tiny differences audiophiles seem to hear not really interest me nor do I take it really serious
Yes, but IMHO your answer was not understandable at all - even I can not figure what you meant with it!
Okay i ll post this for the 6 th time then lol .
http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/zanden/zanden.html
Seems to me a good hifisystem is at least capable of doing something believable , that it uses probably arm thick cables also , okay what the heck , if one believes the magic rests in cables so be it
http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/zanden/zanden.html
Seems to me a good hifisystem is at least capable of doing something believable , that it uses probably arm thick cables also , okay what the heck , if one believes the magic rests in cables so be it
OK, we are all cool. While I still don't understand where andromeda was going with his post, I do understand now that he doesn't care about small changes, which is fine. But to me, a 4% change in VTF (tracking at 2.3g, variance of 0.1g) is significant (not sure where you got the 10%, micro, but it doesn't really matter). What frustrates me the most is when a scientist like Al uses bold language with no real solid personal data (only circumstantial), cites someone else's unverified and unpublished phantom data (thus, only hearsay), and provides no data of any kind from anyone (verified or otherwise). That's when I really lose interest... And yes, we are way off topic (speakers)... sorry about that.
I do care about differences also tiny ones , but a lot off audiophiles have a tendency to exagerate things tremendously and go off track of what really matters
That sounds right. If I remember correctly, Peter measured a fluctuation of VTF between 1.98 - 2.02 upon the largest VTA changes, with 2.00 as the basis point. That is a +/- 1 % difference, which seems insignificant. He may confirm or correct.
The topic of the thread was derailed when a post mentioned three audiophile misconceptions. I responded to that post. My findings may not be published, but I did collect data. Al is a scientist. His mind is open to learning about this topic. He and I discussed the data and listening impressions to support it. I refer you to this post: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?23930-VTA-and-VTF-How-one-affects-the-other
Sorry for the diversion. I will try to get back on topic. I do think that some dynamic speakers do have electrostatic like dynamics and transparency.
or just simply that we don't hear the same.
for instance, some say SET makes vocals or instruments sound eerily real/in the room. I hear "holographic" distortion instead. who is right?
to the OP - there are limitations on all kinds of speakers. you have to figure out what limits you are ok with.
for instance, dynamic drivers have crossovers which many don't like. Quads have no bass. there is no right answer for every set of ears.
for instance, dynamic drivers have crossovers which many don't like. Quads have no bass. there is no right answer for every set of ears.
I tend to think of electrostatics as a type of driver as opposed to speaker. Much of their performance, in turn, is a function of the implementation of this driver type into the speaker (just like the drivers in any other speaker design). Electrostatic's primary drawbacks are high inductance (which can largely be overcome by high current amplification) and frequency limitation. Their benefit are widely known.
When done right (with the right crossovers) electrostatics can bring exceptional dynamics in the frequency range in which they are competent and across the entire frequency range when designed with the right dynamic drivers for the frequencies in which they are not competent.
In my view most of the negative stereotypes come from the fact that some designers have taken electrosts (as drivers) into frequency ranges where they are not competent (due to their physical limitations of absolute air movement) and/or from the fact that some owners fail to match the them with high current amplification to take on their punishing inductance.
When done right (with the right crossovers) electrostatics can bring exceptional dynamics in the frequency range in which they are competent and across the entire frequency range when designed with the right dynamic drivers for the frequencies in which they are not competent.
In my view most of the negative stereotypes come from the fact that some designers have taken electrosts (as drivers) into frequency ranges where they are not competent (due to their physical limitations of absolute air movement) and/or from the fact that some owners fail to match the them with high current amplification to take on their punishing inductance.
Sets do wonderful things on the right speaker. The guys who claim they are panacea for all speakers hear the similar to you, but are too stubborn to admit otherwise or accept what they are hearing. They delude themselves.
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