PRaT: "Pace Rhythm and Timing" or "PRetentious audiophile Trash"?

Legolas · Apr 1, 2018

LL21 said:
Very interesting reading. A few questions:

1. I too have enjoyed reading MC over the many years, and in fact have sought his direct guidance on a number of occasions which he has graciously and generously provided. Do you mean the Audio Note DAC 5th Element? That is definitely one which MC liked a lot, and by his rankings, is far and away his highest ranking digital where he (like you) suggested that Redbook could sit side by side with vinyl with the AN DAC 5th Element

I have a bit of suspicion around that Fifth Element / Fifth Force DAC. I haven't heard it but I did until recently own the Audio Note UK DAC 5. A few pointers in the fifth element;

1. The digital board in that 96K DAC is the same as in the DAC 5, which is the same as in the DAC 4 going back to 2002 approx. Not saying that it isn't good, but really, are we really saying it can't be improved upon. Nothing special going on with that PCB, apart from the single AD1865 chip. AN still fill up the top left of the board with de-emphasis parts even though it is no longer used, or the filter positions. No sign of any re-clocking on there. It only accepts SPDIF of course, not sure if that is still the ultimate transfer protocol. Maybe they should have gone i2S?

2. The gain stage is identical to the DAC 5, a fairly simple design itself going back to circa 1999, then 2008 for the V2 the one I had. Is quite nice, but again nothing special. Coupling caps on there, 4 x electrolytics near the tubes, 12 resistors, and some cap loading at the inputs presume for some form of filter.

3. I/V stage as the DAC 5 but bigger cans and silver not copper. And 'mysterious' silver output transformers.

4. A tube on the SPDIF input. AMR do this on their 4K DAC.

5. Doubled up power supply in another chassis.

6. Transport in 2 chassis, using the Philips Pro mechanism, which costs circa £450. Maybe a clock on that board, not sure. Power supply for the transport.

7. Simple bent steel chassis same as the lower products apart from the copper base plate. The top case rung like hell on my DAC, and zero damping in the sides or base, the PCBs on simple standoffs.

That's kind of it. Maybe it sounds great, but TBH the DAC 5 is far behind my Kassandra and IMO I just don't get the 180K pricing or understand why it is potentially held in such regard? Anyone else on here heard it and compared it to another DAC outside of the Audio Note system and can chime in.

LL21 · Apr 1, 2018

dcathro said:
Yes that is the one I meant. You never know with reviews just how good something is, so I asked very specifically if this was as good as the very finest most expensive analog replay, and I was told yes.

My first preference is for the very first CDs made in Japan & West Germany in the early 80's, later releases are almost always worse. As far as audiophile releases such as DCC, MFSL, etc, Some of the releases are not to my taste, whilst others can be good - you have to compare against an original release CD from the early 80's. Again, I have a number of classical XRCDs as well as some later FIMs, and I like those. I didn't like the XRCD jazz/pop releases which seemed to be EQed.

I am using a single box machine which is based on the Philips tda1541a dac and CDM4 transport. It was designed by Chris Bryant who has been designing CD players since the mid 80's. I am very happy with the machine, as it is extremely analog and has great drive and dynamics.

Edit - I just noticed you have the Zanden NOS player, which is interesting, because it was the inspiration for Chris to develop his player, whilst The Fifth element player has had him working hard to improve it.

I have heard the usual suspect such as the MSB and DCS dacs. I quite like the MSB sound, but not the price, whilst I have never liked DCS gear. I have not heard the Audio Note Fifth Element myself.

Cheers

David

Hi David,

Thanks for that...very interesting about Chris Bryant. I did not realize he also designed digital audio playback systems. Interesting also that he was inspired by the Zanden. I still enjoy it, that's for sure. What is Chris working on now to compete with AN DAC 5th Element?

dcathro · Apr 1, 2018

astrostar59 said:
I have a bit of suspicion around that Fifth Element / Fifth Force DAC. I haven't heard it but I did until recently own the Audio Note UK DAC 5. A few pointers in the fifth element;

1. The digital board in that 96K DAC is the same as in the DAC 5, which is the same as in the DAC 4 going back to 2002 approx. Not saying that it isn't good, but really, are we really saying it can't be improved upon. Nothing special going on with that PCB, apart from the single AD1865 chip. AN still fill up the top left of the board with de-emphasis parts even though it is no longer used, or the filter positions. No sign of any re-clocking on there. It only accepts SPDIF of course, not sure if that is still the ultimate transfer protocol. Maybe they should have gone i2S?

2. The gain stage is identical to the DAC 5, a fairly simple design itself going back to circa 1999, then 2008 for the V2 the one I had. Is quite nice, but again nothing special. Coupling caps on there, 4 x electrolytics near the tubes, 12 resistors, and some cap loading at the inputs presume for some form of filter.

3. I/V stage as the DAC 5 but bigger cans and silver not copper. And 'mysterious' silver output transformers.

4. A tube on the SPDIF input. AMR do this on their 4K DAC.

5. Doubled up power supply in another chassis.

6. Transport in 2 chassis, using the Philips Pro mechanism, which costs circa £450. Maybe a clock on that board, not sure. Power supply for the transport.

7. Simple bent steel chassis same as the lower products apart from the copper base plate. The top case rung like hell on my DAC, and zero damping in the sides or base, the PCBs on simple standoffs.

That's kind of it. Maybe it sounds great, but TBH the DAC 5 is far behind my Kassandra and IMO I just don't get the 180K pricing or understand why it is potentially held in such regard? Anyone else on here heard it and compared it to another DAC outside of the Audio Note system and can chime in.

Sorry Astrostar59,

I didn't realise that you had replaced the Audionote DAC.

I had never heard of the Kassandra until you mentioned it, but it sounds very interesting!

dcathro · Apr 1, 2018

LL21 said:
Hi David,

Thanks for that...very interesting about Chris Bryant. I did not realize he also designed digital audio playback systems. Interesting also that he was inspired by the Zanden. I still enjoy it, that's for sure. What is Chris working on now to compete with AN DAC 5th Element?

Chris Bryant has been a behind the scenes consultant designer for 30+ years, designing Cd players, DACS, pre-amps, amps, speakers, cables, anti RFI devices, etc. He was the main designer of Naim's first CD player, helped design the BMW Silver Signatures, Meridian amplifiers, etc.

He has always had a Northern Englishman's bent for trying to get the maximum performance for the minimum cost. My Nos player cost me just $3000. He has been working on refining the player since he heard the AN. I received my first player in 2006 and loved it, the upgrade I got last year was significant and he says there is more to come.

LL21 · Apr 1, 2018

dcathro said:
Chris Bryant has been a behind the scenes consultant designer for 30+ years, designing Cd players, DACS, pre-amps, amps, speakers, cables, anti RFI devices, etc. He was the main designer of Naim's first CD player, helped design the BMW Silver Signatures, Meridian amplifiers, etc.

He has always had a Northern Englishman's bent for trying to get the maximum performance for the minimum cost. My Nos player cost me just $3000. He has been working on refining the player since he heard the AN. I received my first player in 2006 and loved it, the upgrade I got last year was significant and he says there is more to come.

Fantastic...please let us know when he has got his next major digital piece done. Very interesting to learn more. Thank you!

Legolas · Apr 2, 2018

dcathro said:
Sorry Astrostar59,

I didn't realise that you had replaced the Audionote DAC.

I had never heard of the Kassandra until you mentioned it, but it sounds very interesting!

No apologies required. My view on Audio Note is complicated. They have / had some great ideas, things that changed the audio sector, especially interesting was the 1 x oversampling, use of transformers in the I/V stage and output transformers. It went against the tide and is exactly what this industry needs from time to time, challenge the direction of the main stream.

My issue with this company is centred around the creating pricing structures and price v performance. That and the fact they have not designed anything new for so long. So we have these 'mystical' products out there which get limited exposure v other top tier products, exposure as shows etc. i.e. if this Fifth Element is the best ever DAC, lets pitch it against other best efforts from different manufacturers.

The pricing structures at Audio Note seem based primarily around how much silver there is in the relevant amplifier level (for example). We have the Conquest 300B mono blocks which I owned for 3 years, then the same design as you go up the 'levels' with more silver in and 'trick' resistors, a sprinkling of BG caps. That is it. So can the same design really sound that much better and command a 5 x price hike? I challenge that strategy, and think it doesn't work in the real world of price v performance. The same sized output transformers, can they really avoid saturation by a sprinkling of silver?

Going back the Martin Colloms performance charts referenced. Respect to the effort in creating that. I would question some of those ranking though. If my memory serves me, he had the Metrum Octave DAC at 125 points, and the Audio Note DAC 5 at 78. Well I have owned both those DACs at the same time, and can say with certainty that Metrum DAC is NOT at that level. It is great on a price v performance granted, but in the scale of sonics (price out of the rankings) I would rate it at 35 max v the DAC 5.

This makes me question the overall table. The best situation we can have on the Fifth Element DAC is have a face off with other top tier DACs so we know once and for all just if it is worth the 180K price tag, lets cut through the fog....

dcathro · Apr 2, 2018

astrostar59 said:
No apologies required. My view on Audio Note is complicated. They have / had some great ideas, things that changed the audio sector, especially interesting was the 1 x oversampling, use of transformers in the I/V stage and output transformers. It went against the tide and is exactly what this industry needs from time to time, challenge the direction of the main stream.

My issue with this company is centred around the creating pricing structures and price v performance. That and the fact they have not designed anything new for so long. So we have these 'mystical' products out there which get limited exposure v other top tier products, exposure as shows etc. i.e. if this Fifth Element is the best ever DAC, lets pitch it against other best efforts from different manufacturers.

The pricing structures at Audio Note seem based primarily around how much silver there is in the relevant amplifier level (for example). We have the Conquest 300B mono blocks which I owned for 3 years, then the same design as you go up the 'levels' with more silver in and 'trick' resistors, a sprinkling of BG caps. That is it. So can the same design really sound that much better and command a 5 x price hike? I challenge that strategy, and think it doesn't work in the real world of price v performance. The same sized output transformers, can they really avoid saturation by a sprinkling of silver?

Going back the Martin Colloms performance charts referenced. Respect to the effort in creating that. I would question some of those ranking though. If my memory serves me, he had the Metrum Octave DAC at 125 points, and the Audio Note DAC 5 at 78. Well I have owned both those DACs at the same time, and can say with certainty that Metrum DAC is NOT at that level. It is great on a price v performance granted, but in the scale of sonics (price out of the rankings) I would rate it at 35 max v the DAC 5.

This makes me question the overall table. The best situation we can have on the Fifth Element DAC is have a face off with other top tier DACs so we know once and for all just if it is worth the 180K price tag, lets cut through the fog....

I understand totally your sense of frustration, but that is the way some of these companies work. Their profit margins are extreme on the basis that their client base will still buy the product.

My own equipment is probably at the very low end of the pricing scale for members on this forum. My current speakers are 25 years old. My preamp is 20 years old, my power amp is a DIY job, and my CD player is based around 1980's tech. So even your DAC is out of my league price wise. I have to be very clever if I want close to

Also Collom's scoring system is polarising. Thirty years ago, , the best audio products were around 10, then twenty years ago they reached 50, and now there are products in the 200's and 400's. It's hard to intellectually grasp how something today could be 20 or 40 times better. He explains himself that if something scores 100 and the next thing sounds twice as good, it scores 200. Perhaps to someone else it might only sound 30% better. Also personal taste must account for differences in scores. I do at least commend him for trying to give a personal reference scale rather than the usual 5 stars or "the best I have heard" rating.

I have no doubt though that the Audio Note DAC is superb. My friend was present for the review listening sessions.

Hey, when you are having the shoot out between the Kassandra and the AN, let me know and I will pop over

.

Cheers

David

Legolas · Apr 2, 2018

dcathro said:
I understand totally your sense of frustration, but that is the way some of these companies work. Their profit margins are extreme on the basis that their client base will still buy the product.

That is what I am talking about. I would say Audio Note UK is fairly unique, in the creative pricing. Lets look at the Conquest Monoblock power amplifiers for example. If you Google the 300B MBs, as they go up the levels and the pricing basically goes up to a factor of 5, the PCB design is the same. So we have the strategy of adding silver, or more silver wires, and / or silver in the transformers. This is basically like a ford focus with 'go faster' bits. It still isn't going to lap a Porsche or indeed feel like that car either. Or are they saying that 'simple' MB design is perfect, can't be bettered, even as we remove cost constants from the equation? I beg to differ.....

My Conquest Silver MBs were so so, even though arguably they are near or at the 'sweet spot' in that range of pricing v performance. I found they had indistinct and loose bass, poor dynamics and saturated quickly at anything like decent sound levels. This was driving various 2 way easy load and fairly efficient speakers.

Now onto speakers, the Audio Note AN-E based on the original Snell design, fairly nice speaker in it's day, a classic 2 way ported box, efficient etc. It is nice performance for around the sub 10K mark if we use the price v performance ratio as a guide. Accepting price does not always equate to performance generally. As we go up the levels, the AN-E gets 'more silver' 'better' driver etc. But still an 8 inch pulp bass cone and simple soft dome tweeter. This in a barely braced wooden box that needs to be jammed into the corners to get decent bass. I have friends who have various levels of the AN-E, and I just don't get the pricing on it at all.

I could go on. As always in this hobby, and to quite Peter Q himself - 'comparison by contrast' v other similarly price products, then decide. IMO best not to hang onto a chart of performance, use your own ears.....

Atmasphere · Apr 2, 2018

jkeny said:
Ok, I'm not talking about recordings which have aliasing issues - they are obviously broken, by definition & break the Shannon-Whittaker basic premise of a band-limited signal. if this is not achieved then all bets are off in digital audio.
I'm not even sure what you are talking about - you did recordings with recording equipment which had aliasing problems? Can you name these devices? I would be surprised if any digital recording was released with aliasing problems as it is such a simple thing to avoid?? Are you saying you found such recordings - please provide details?

'Broken' is a good word for it

A simple thing to avoid, but I don't think everyone did. I don't think you would hear birdies in a music recording as the tones are not constant in the way that a sweep tone is. IOW no telling how many are out there. I don't recall the name of the converter- that was a long time ago. I'll talk to my partner that ran the studio at the time and see if he remembers.

microstrip said:
I think we are now mixing two very different thinks - sampling rate and clock phase noise. Which are you addressing?

Initially, sampling rate, but I've come to think in recent years that clock consistency is far more important!

astrostar59 said:
Why do we 'accept' tape hiss and still enjoy the music? My many early years on cassette tapes attest to that. Why do we accept pops and clicks in a TT replay system? It seems those things in our brains we have no problem with, put it to the back and not analyse it. Maybe like wind noise or a distant bird or something.

But digital noise or hash, especially inconsistent noise, speaking for myself, I find it gets my attention (unwanted attention). It seems like a piece of plastic in a field, stands out right away, ruins the view (the sound). Bit like a mobile phone going off at the other end of a concert hall, it bugs me and ruins the illusion, reminds me I am listing to a 'digital' device.

The artifacts of analog are primarily heard in the speakers, while the music floats in space. You can easily ignore the artifacts as they are part of the music.

The artifacts of digital are imbued in the music itself- just like EQ or compression. That makes it harder to ignore.

Search

Search

PRaT: "Pace Rhythm and Timing" or "PRetentious audiophile Trash"?

Legolas

VIP/Donor

LL21

Well-Known Member

dcathro

Well-Known Member

dcathro

Well-Known Member

LL21

Well-Known Member

Legolas

VIP/Donor

dcathro

Well-Known Member

Legolas

VIP/Donor

Atmasphere

Industry Expert

Similar threads

Members online