Review: Grand Prix Audio • Monaco 2.0 Turntable

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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Tim, I never realised this was you. It certainly seems like this might be the most significant new tt on the market right now.
How do you think it’s going to compare to the new SP10R?
 

awsmone

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Apr 6, 2014
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Canberra Australia
Thanks for the link

I think the Monaco’s are wonderful turntables, but they have an image problem, against my other TT they look like a child

Till you hear it, mine is very special and it’s not the latest version

The upgrade is pretty expensive unfortunately, and I got mine at an incredible price, just have to be happy with what I have
 

tima

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Mar 3, 2014
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Tim, I never realised this was you. It certainly seems like this might be the most significant new tt on the market right now.
How do you think it’s going to compare to the new SP10R?

I could not begin to speculate re the SP10R or SP1000R(?). So much depends on implementation of the drive system. The motor is critical and more so the way it and the controller behind it are implemented. I don't know if Technics published specs yet. What is peak deviation (ppm) from perfect 33-1/3 based on actual platter speed, not a crystal oscillator spec? How is the platter-to-controller-to motor interface managed? Inputs and outputs per second? Etc. etc.

I thought Roy's review was brilliant.
 

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 3, 2014
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Thanks for the link

I think the Monaco’s are wonderful turntables, but they have an image problem, against my other TT they look like a child

Till you hear it, mine is very special and it’s not the latest version

The upgrade is pretty expensive unfortunately, and I got mine at an incredible price, just have to be happy with what I have

Heh - out of the mouth's of babes, etc.

You've got a great 'table in the Monaco 1.5.
I was super happy with mine until I heard the 2.0.
I agree the upgrade is a bit pricey - that's why I stopped doing digital. ;-)

If you have a dealer anywhere close, try to get a listen to the GPA Parabolica. That's the model that replaced the 1.5 at less than half the price of the 2.0.
 

DaveyF

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Jul 31, 2010
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La Jolla, Calif USA
I remember when his racks and stands were all the rage. Funny how times change.

I think the racks are still superb.I use a couple of Monaco amp stands and they are by far the best I have ever used. Am looking to replace my main rack with one of the Monaco’s....
 

awsmone

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2014
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Yes parabolic seems very good price point but to be honest at the price difference of upgrade be better to sell 1.5 and buy 2.0
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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Tim, I’m struggling to get my head around this.
The 1.0 and especially 1.5 already had class leading speed stability. If I’m to believe the rumours, the 1.5 only adjusted speed maybe 4-5 times per side. Now it’s a maximum of 1-2 times.
That means the 1.5 was already beyond the realms of practical audible recognition of wow. So just how can the 2.0 be in effect night and day audibly superior?
I have an alternative theory.
 

jfrech

VIP/Donor
Sep 3, 2012
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I remember when his racks and stands were all the rage. Funny how times change.

His racks are still amongst the very best....arguably the best when discussing the Silverstone F1 rack...
 

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 3, 2014
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Tim, I’m struggling to get my head around this.
The 1.0 and especially 1.5 already had class leading speed stability. If I’m to believe the rumours, the 1.5 only adjusted speed maybe 4-5 times per side. Now it’s a maximum of 1-2 times.
That means the 1.5 was already beyond the realms of practical audible recognition of wow. So just how can the 2.0 be in effect night and day audibly superior?
I have an alternative theory.

You describe exactly what I went through in a process of discovery with the 1.5 and 2.0, side by side ; same tonearms, cartridges and system. I srongly encourage you to read the two articles cited in the first post. Your topics are explicitly addressed in both.

People are thinking old school when stable speed accuracy is gauged primarily by wow or pitch stability. Our ears are more sensitive than that.

Alvin Lloyd and his team knew they could improve on the Monaco 1.5 but they were stunned at the sonic results - as were Roy and I- and i daresay every 1.5 user who has upgraded to the 2.0 that i've heard from. This is not theory. It is direct experiential evidence of highly stable rotational accuracy on human listeners.
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
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I’ll do that Tim. My theory that it’s formally increased torque is not the explanation?
I’ve never yet been convinced by any low torque tt, so if the 2.0 is more speed stable, AND torquier, could this not ALSO be critical?
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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So, we’re talking about a whole new method to control speed? I’m obviously not quite taking in the whole concept.
Can you in a few sentences re interpret what you feel the contrast is btwn the 1.5 and 2.0 in terms of how things are achieved.
 

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 3, 2014
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I’ll do that Tim. My theory that it’s formally increased torque is not the explanation?
I’ve never yet been convinced by any low torque tt, so if the 2.0 is more speed stable, AND torquier, could this not ALSO be critical?

No. I asked about that and Alvin does not think so. Iirc, the 2.0 may have a very small increase in torque that came with its totally different motor. The magnesium platter is pretty light though it has a weighted phosphor bronze ring on it interior circumfrence - the 'table is not about mass or torque.

I enjoy your curiosity spirit, and appreciate your enthusiasm. I try to answer questions when i'm reasonably confident. It's not respectful/fair/reasonable/kind asking for work already hard won to be repeated when that work is there for the having. Read the articles in the first post, then we can talk.

It's not really about a genuine engineering approach to speed control. Think about what happens at the stylus-groove nexus.
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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I find it fascinating, and hugely impressive, that the 2.0 reads speed in excess of 165000 times a second, but might only adjust the speed once per side.
That’s one alteration for every 180 million checks over a typical lp side.
 

DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2010
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La Jolla, Calif USA
I find it fascinating, and hugely impressive, that the 2.0 reads speed in excess of 165000 times a second, but might only adjust the speed once per side.
That’s one alteration for every 180 million checks over a typical lp side.

Speed accuracy is IMO the most important aspect of playback from a TT. This is why with the platform that I use, the LP12, that the whole upgrade path has to some extent revolved around the speed controller and the accuracy of same. The current Radikal D takes this to a new level. I'm sure that the new Monaco v2 must be an excellent table and one that I would put on my very short list if I was table shopping.
 

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 3, 2014
5,777
6,818
1,400
the Upper Midwest
I find it fascinating, and hugely impressive, that the 2.0 reads speed in excess of 165000 times a second, but might only adjust the speed once per side.
That’s one alteration for every 180 million checks over a typical lp side.

From a perfect 33 1/3rpm rotational speed, the peak deviation for the 2.0 is typically better than 0.0001% (1ppm) -- that’s measured platter motion not a crystal oscillation spec. It's not just the accuracy of the drive system, but its software's ability to not just compensate but predict how far any error might extend. The DSP computer motor interface is super fast. According to Alvin Lloyd: "The DSP controller’s feedback system can activate over 1000 changes (speed corrections) per second." This also contributes to keeping the drive system very quiet. It is a true engineering approach to building a turntable from a team with the design, digital, mechanical and machining chops honed in auto racing. The Monaco is a pleasure to use because adjustments, and the tools to make them, are very high-precision. Of course the real pleasure lies in what all this yields for listening.
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
14,601
5,411
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E. England
I’m impressed Tim.
I heard the 1.5 in a very impressive Cessaro Liszt based setup and came away w great respect for the Monaco.
I have to say of all the uber contenders out there, SME30/12, Kronos Pro, AF1, the 2.0 is the one that floats my boat the most.
Before fans of these tts jump in and berate me for this opinion based on a non comparison, I’m guilty of stating this purely as a hunch.
For me I’m attracted more to the Monaco re it’s speed accuracy/stability attributes than the concept of counter rotational platters or uber vacuum hold down/air suspension/air bearing concepts.
And despite being pricey, the 2.0 is right at the lower end of stupid high end tt pricing.
 

DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2010
6,129
181
458
La Jolla, Calif USA
I’m impressed Tim.
I heard the 1.5 in a very impressive Cessaro Liszt based setup and came away w great respect for the Monaco.
I have to say of all the uber contenders out there, SME30/12, Kronos Pro, AF1, the 2.0 is the one that floats my boat the most.
Before fans of these tts jump in and berate me for this opinion based on a non comparison, I’m guilty of stating this purely as a hunch.
For me I’m attracted more to the Monaco re it’s speed accuracy/stability attributes than the concept of counter rotational platters or uber vacuum hold down/air suspension/air bearing concepts.
And despite being pricey, the 2.0 is right at the lower end of stupid high end tt pricing.

Marc, If i were in the market for a new TT, the new Monaco 2.0 would be on my very short list. I have heard the 1.5,and like you, I was very impressed. For some reason, Mikey F trashed the first version of the table..which undoubtedly hurt sales of the table. There are some pretty good DD tables on the market today..the new Technics SP10R, which I heard yesterday, is also interesting. Luckily for Technics, Mikey F seemed to like this one, LOL.
 

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